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25 new of 101 responses total.
mcnally
response 26 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 15 09:12 UTC 2003

  re #23:
  > Because at its inception, the technology to conduct a reasonably
  > accurate count of the popular vote wasn't available, and now it is.

  I suppose such technology is available.  Of course "available" and
  "in use" aren't the same thing..  
mcnally
response 27 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 15 09:18 UTC 2003

  re #24:  You're right about the original electoral latitude allowed the
  states but I'm still reasonably certain that allowing an override of the
  popular selection is one of the things that the electoral college was
  designed for.  It's certainly a fair question to ask whether it was ever
  a good idea but to argue that it has outlived its usefulness *because*
  it has functioned as designed (as richard is doing) strikes me as a really
  off-base argument.
richard
response 28 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 15 09:21 UTC 2003

re #22...no I have thought the electoral college was outdated for a long
time before the 2000 election.  One reason is that the system is set up so
that whoever wins the popular vote in each state gets ALL of that state's
electoral votes.  The people of Florida in 2000 were clearly evenly
divided, and half the population in Florida voted for Gore.  But Bush as
the certified winner, even if he won by one vote or ten votes out of
millions, got ALL the state's electoral votes.  Why can't the state's
electoral votes be apportioned according to the break down of the vote, so
that if somebody gets forty percent of the vote, they get forty percent of
that state's electors?  Because it would make too much sense to do it that
way.  States theoretically have more leverage in the electoral college if
ALL of their electors vote the same way.  So Gore got half the vote in
Florida and zero electoral votes from Florida.  Is that right?  They could
at least allocate electors based on each congressional district won, so
that if a candidate wins the 2nd district, he gets the second district's
electoral vote and so on.  But that makes too much sense too I guess.

And I say that knowing it wouldn't always help my candidates.  In 2000,
Gore got all 54 of California's electoral votes, but under a system where
he only got the votes of those congressional districts he carried, he
might have only won 30 or so electors.  But like I said, Gore would have
gotten maybe half the electors in Florida and electors in other states
where he lost by close margins.  The results would probably have been the
same.  But it would seem a lot fairer then awarding ALL the state's
electors to a candidate who only got half the state's popular vote.


twenex
response 29 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 15 11:34 UTC 2003

Re: 21: It's outdated because allowing a check on the popular vote is less
acceptable now than it was in the 1700s.
gelinas
response 30 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 15 13:33 UTC 2003

Each state decides for itself how its electoral votes shall be cast.
If New York, for instance, wants to go to a porportional system, or any
other (by county, for instance), it can.
polygon
response 31 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 15 14:18 UTC 2003

Winner-take-all by congressional district is not really very different
from winner-take-all by state.

The Electoral College is one of many institutions and incentives in this
country which uphold the two-party system.  There is enormous focus on the
Presidency, and the only way to win it outright is by winning a majority
in the Electoral College.  In a parliamentary or proportional
representation system, a party that could get 18% of the vote is a power
center and will have seats and maybe even a cabinet minister or two; in
our system, such a small party would be powerless and meaningless in
presidential elections, which means there is little incentive to create or
join such a thing. 

As I mentioned in item #30, I'm opposed to the total abolition of the
Electoral College, but I do advocate changing it so that at least some of
the electors (one or two per state) are awarded to the winner of the
national popular vote.
rcurl
response 32 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 15 17:56 UTC 2003

I don't see the absolute relevance of the "national popular vote". We
live locally, not nationally, for one thing. It seems to be a fetish more
than a necessity, especially because of our being a federation of States.
Do those advocating abolishing the electoral college also advocate abolishing
States and their independent perogatives? If not, why not?
drew
response 33 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 15 21:35 UTC 2003

We live locally, but often end up getting regulated nationally, more than was
originally intended. It was supposed to be States' rights, though in the
context of the States representing the interests of their resident
individuals. States don't have a lot of the original independence mentioned
by #32 anymore.

For my part, I still support the concept of independent polities within a
federation, though I think the base independent polity should by strong
preference be large enough to encompass the average daily commute. But if we
*are* going to be regulated nationally, the votes for the leader should
likewise be counted nationally to the same extent.
keesan
response 34 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 15 21:36 UTC 2003

I would rather be able to elect a national Green party candidate than a
Michigan Democrat.u
happyboy
response 35 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 15 21:44 UTC 2003

agreed.
klg
response 36 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 16 02:18 UTC 2003

Mr. richard:
If you were willing to equally vent your anger at the minority of the 
U.S. Senate that is preventing a floor vote on President Bush's Appeals 
Court nominees, then we might be able to consider taking you seriously.
rcurl
response 37 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 16 04:11 UTC 2003

And we might take you more seriously if you felt the same about the 53
Clinton nominees that the Republicans would not even allow out of committee.
richard
response 38 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 16 09:03 UTC 2003

klg, different situation entirely.  one situation is an election in a
democratic country where every voter is supposed to have equal rights.  If
each voter's vote is not counted equally, is that equal rights?  The Senate
is entirely different. The democrat senators are playing by the rules.  If
you don't lik that, change the rules

btw, klg why do you always refer to yourself in the plural. You are NOT "We",
you are an "I", a lone isolated voice.  don't flatter yourself by doing this
"we" crap anymore when you are only voicing one opinion
drew
response 39 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 16 20:42 UTC 2003

Multiple personality disorder.
other
response 40 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 16 23:04 UTC 2003

more like 'absent personality' disorder.
klg
response 41 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 17 14:35 UTC 2003

Mr. richard,
As you may possible be aware, up to this point the Senate minority party 
has not prevented a nominee cleared by committee from receiving the 
benefit of a floor vote. Your Democrats are using Senate rules for the 
first time to do this.  When the Democrats regain control of the body, 
do you believe that the precedent they have set will have been forgotten 
by the minority Republicans?  Once again, we see that a particular party 
is doing permanent damage to the American democracy for blatent partisan 
gain.  It is time, do you not think, that the Democrats reconsider their 
strategy and allow the body to play the traditional "advise and consent" 
role that it has done for over 200 years.
We repeat:  If you were willing to equally vent your anger at the 
minority of the U.S. Senate that is preventing a floor vote on President 
Bush's Appeals Court nominees, then we might be able to consider taking 
you seriously.
klg
klg
response 42 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 17 14:40 UTC 2003

Oh, Mr. richard,
Yes.  We are voicing one opinion.  However, it would seem that this that 
to which we are entitled.  Does this bother you?  It appears you wish to 
avoid the fact that others exist.
(We note, as well, that you are voicing one mere opinion and we have no 
qualms with your doing so.)
klg
gull
response 43 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 17 15:33 UTC 2003

Re #41: Paraphrase: "It's okay to block a Democrat's nominees but not a
Republican's.  But I can't come out and say that I feel this way, so I'm
going to argue a technicality about the procedure used to block them."
bru
response 44 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 17 16:47 UTC 2003

it isn't that they oppose the nominationan and are blocking it.  It is how
they are blocking it.

The Republican leadership still hasn't done everything they could do to bring
this to a vote.  They do not want to use those tactics that the democrats have
fallen to using because they don't want to set that precedent.
mcnally
response 45 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 17 17:50 UTC 2003

  Anytime someone asks me to believe that Tom Delay has refrained from
  using a tactic that will work to his political advantage out of fear
  that it will set a bad precedent, my first reaction is to think:
  what have I done or said to make this person think I'm a gullible idiot?
rcurl
response 46 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 17 18:43 UTC 2003

The senate minority is just doing what they should be doing, stopping very
bad nominations from proceeding. The senate has approved some 160+
nominations, and the minority seems to find only 4 to be untenable. The
majority party should take this opinion more seriously, and accept that
viewpoint. The Republican record when the appointments were being made
by a Democrat was MUCH worse. They stopped some 63 nominations from
proceeding in committee - not even permitting full Senate debate, as
the Democrats are now allowing. 
gull
response 47 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 17 19:37 UTC 2003

Re #46: Last I heard it was 168 nominations passed, 4 blocked, which is
something like a 97% success rate.  If you ask me Bush is being a bit of a
whiner here, especially considering the Republicans' record under Clinton. 
Nothing in the Constitution says the Senate is supposed to automatically
rubber-stamp all his nominees without question.
klg
response 48 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 18 02:29 UTC 2003

Mr. mcnally-
You may be interested to learn that Mr. Delay is not a member of the 
U.S. Sentate.

Mr. rcurl-
What you fail to admit is that it is quite clear that the nominations 
which the minority is currently filibustering would be certain to win a 
clear majority in a vote of the full body.  This cannot be said of the 
other nominations to which you refer.
bru
response 49 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 18 04:13 UTC 2003

It may be that the Democrats fear these four particular nominations because
they would be in position to be nominated to the Supreme Court.  I have heard
that arguement used, but it doen't follow to me because as far as I know,
nayone can be appointed to teh supreme court.
tsty
response 50 of 101: Mark Unseen   Nov 18 05:53 UTC 2003

a.. adn that great dui-driver just labled a balck, female circuit (??)
judge  'neanderthal' including her with three other judges ...
  
teddy-dear ought to be on espn!
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