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Grex > Agora46 > #205: The rich are finding ways to steal from YOUR mutual fund! | |
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| Author |
Message |
| 11 new of 36 responses total. |
carson
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response 26 of 36:
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Sep 17 16:28 UTC 2003 |
(Joe, items don't happen in a vaccuum and I can't read minds, but I'll
do my best to restate myself. truth be told, I'm *still* trying to figure
out the intended point of resp:12 myself.)
(to the best of my interpretation, what we had in the beginning of this
item was a discussion about mutual fund companies, their managers, their
investors, and their influence on business. along comes a factoid about a
widening economic gap [which, now that I've had a day or two to consider,
I now believe was intended for another item, perhaps one on income taxes]
that, on the surface, doesn't have any relation to the discussion.)
(so what's a casual BBSer to do? if you're me on the evening of September
12, 2003, you try to find the non-obvious connection, which is what I did,
and I began by trying to figure out just why the economic gap might widen
and how that might relate to mutual funds. "if you're struggling to make
ends meet, you don't have much in the way of disposable income. if you
don't have disposable income, you're not investing it. if you have
disposable income, you might try investing it. if you're investing in a
mutual fund, you're trusting someone else to manage the money. managers
of mutual funds are managing a lot of money. some high-yield investments
require a lot of money in order to participate. mutual fund managers that
manage well have more money with which to play. people with more money to
invest are probably seeing higher returns. many of our richest people are
earning significant amounts from investments. many of our poorest people
can't afford investments. richer people have more opportunity to invest
because they have disposable income. those who have money are better at
making/earning/investing/managing it.")
(there are some faulty assumptions and leaps of logic but so far, with
everything I've read, it's panned out. even in resp:0 we have mutual fund
managers who have been able to work the system in order to make money for
themselves and their companies because they're *better* at working the
system, even if it's only for a short time [and involves a ridiculous
amount of impropriety and possible illegality]. I'm certainly willing to
change my mind in the face of better reasoning; until then, I'm sticking
by my comment in resp:16. Joe, would it have been more palatable to you
if I had included "more education?" in resp:18 in addition to everything
else?)
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gelinas
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response 27 of 36:
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Sep 17 16:52 UTC 2003 |
The problem with #16, and your last, from my point of view, is described in
your statement, "we have mutual fund managers . . . *better* at working the
system, even if . . . [and involves a ridiculous amount of impropriety and
possible illegality]." 'Twas noted in #0 that their actions WERE illegal.
That is, bluntly, a form of theft. Sure, pickpockets are skillful, but we
still put them in jail for practicing their art, and we don't hold them as
models to emulate, as the "rich getting richer because they are better it"
does.
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carson
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response 28 of 36:
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Sep 17 21:51 UTC 2003 |
(I didn't gather that anyone mentioned in resp:0 had served any time.
further, I'm getting the strong impression that I wasn't as out of context
as you would have liked for me to be, rather that my comments didn't
complement your world view. are we reading the same item, Joe? can you
tell the difference between objectivity and subjectivity?)
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gelinas
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response 29 of 36:
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Sep 17 22:11 UTC 2003 |
"The funds -- Bank of America, Janus Capital Group, Bank One Corp. and
Strong Capital Management -- gave Canary Capital Partners access to:
Closing-bell prices on share purchases made hours after the market closed,
despite federal laws prohibiting such look-back pricing" (Resp 0).
So they've not yet gone to jail. They still broke the law.
Were all those who made out like bandits in the past six years actually
bandits? Probably not. Were they all extremely skilled money managers?
Again, probably not. Does more disposable income explain their increased
wealth? Possibly; it's often said that it takes money to make money.
Is there any way that the statement in #16 is not a gross simplification
of a complex subject? Nope.
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tod
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response 30 of 36:
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Sep 17 22:51 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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klg
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response 31 of 36:
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Sep 18 01:04 UTC 2003 |
Didn't somebody who reported to Fastow just get 5 yrs. - a reduction in
return for his testimony???
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tod
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response 32 of 36:
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Sep 18 03:29 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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carson
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response 33 of 36:
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Sep 18 10:56 UTC 2003 |
(I don't disagree with the last paragraph of resp:29. I think, Joe, that
you've missed the purpose. and, I'm still waiting to see what the point
of resp:12 was.)
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gull
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response 34 of 36:
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Sep 18 14:42 UTC 2003 |
I just thought it was related, admittedly vaguely. It's hard to argue
that the widening gap between rich and poor has nothing to do with the
huge increases in CEO compensation, which basically amount to CEOs
plundering from the stockholders and general employees.
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klg
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response 35 of 36:
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Sep 18 16:10 UTC 2003 |
Mr tod,
You stand corrected:
First ex-Enron exec sentenced to prison
Published in Portsmouth Herald - Indexed on Sep 15, 2003
HOUSTON - A former Enron Corp. treasurer pleaded guilty Wednesday to a
federal conspiracy charge and became the first executive sentenced to
prison in the scandal that toppled the energy company. U.S. District
Judge Kenneth Hoyt sentenced Ben Glisan to five years in prison on a
conspiracy charge, the maximum term allowed. Prosecutors said there was
no deal to implicate higher-ranking executives such as Enron's former
chairman Kenneth Lay and former chief executive Jeffrey Skilling.
Glisan, 37, will be under supervised release for three years after
completing his prison term.
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tod
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response 36 of 36:
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Sep 18 17:12 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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