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Grex > Agora56 > #84: Newspaper in Denmark prints cartoon pics of Mohammed | |
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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 432 responses total. |
nharmon
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response 256 of 432:
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Feb 15 04:07 UTC 2006 |
> It is when people try to force their beliefs on other people that
> problems start.
Exactly. And that includes atheists saying "believing in god is like
believing in the easter bunny, and you religious people are misguided".
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mcnally
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response 257 of 432:
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Feb 15 04:17 UTC 2006 |
re #256: expressing an opinion == "forcing their beliefs on other people."
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rcurl
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response 258 of 432:
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Feb 15 06:47 UTC 2006 |
Not?
Nothing I have said forces my beliefs upon anyone, unless you mean by
"force" even expressing anything.
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mcnally
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response 259 of 432:
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Feb 15 07:58 UTC 2006 |
I mis-edited. There was meant to be a ? at the end of #257, expressing
incredulity at the equivalence suggested by #256.
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fudge
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response 260 of 432:
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Feb 15 10:35 UTC 2006 |
I wish someone had mentioned "observation" in all the talk about questioning,
hypotheses and proof... ;)
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nharmon
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response 261 of 432:
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Feb 15 13:05 UTC 2006 |
Ok, so what constitutes "forcing your beliefs on other people"? Pointing
a pistol at you and forcing you to pray? Or can we include humiliating
people who believe something different than you? Because the former
almost never happens, but the latter happens a lot.
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fudge
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response 262 of 432:
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Feb 15 13:10 UTC 2006 |
Disclaimer: if an adult of otherwise sound mind believes in fairies I reserve
the unlimited right to either take the piss to the extreme or to look down
on them with contempt. This being my absolute prerogative, I also opt to be
ignore the matter on occasion, such as with nice people I know, who
unfortunately *do* believe in fairies.
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jadecat
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response 263 of 432:
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Feb 15 13:25 UTC 2006 |
resp:245 Jon you write that "The Christian church doesn't teach that
logical thought about God is dangerous (unless you mean dangerous in the
same sense that fire, automobiles, and every other part of human
existence is dangerous)."
Which is too broad- there are too many sects in Chritianity to really
claim that they all believe in the same thing (excepting of course the
belief in God and that Jesus was the Messiah). Saying that Christian
Churchs don't teach logical thought about God being dangerous is simply
untrue. There ARE Christian sects that do claim that very thing. One of
the basic reasons for there being so many sects is that they all think
the others are wrong on a few key parts.
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nharmon
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response 264 of 432:
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Feb 15 14:52 UTC 2006 |
Re 262: How tolerant of you.
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fudge
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response 265 of 432:
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Feb 15 15:11 UTC 2006 |
I take it you believe in fairies?
PS: who said I have to be tolerant? I am not a christian.
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nharmon
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response 266 of 432:
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Feb 15 15:22 UTC 2006 |
This response has been erased.
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nharmon
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response 267 of 432:
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Feb 15 15:23 UTC 2006 |
Nobody said you have to be tolerant; just don't complain when we don't
tolerate you. :)
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keesan
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response 268 of 432:
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Feb 15 17:38 UTC 2006 |
I think teaching religious beliefs in public schools is forcing your beliefs
on other people, unless it is done in a course on comparative religions.
Decorating public places at public expense with religious symbols is also
forcing your beliefs on other people. Lights and 'Happy Holidays' around Jan
1 is not. Much as I dislike listening to Christmas Carols in businesses that
cater to the public, I can only object on esthetic grounds to that. I doubt
anyone really believes in Rudolf the Rednosed Reindeer, and they can choose
to avoid businesses that play the song.
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nharmon
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response 269 of 432:
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Feb 15 17:42 UTC 2006 |
Sindi, even Christians get tired of Christmas music. :)
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happyboy
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response 270 of 432:
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Feb 15 17:53 UTC 2006 |
they listen to it on their ipods while they
pass legislation
banning hpv vaccines
republican values!
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kingjon
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response 271 of 432:
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Feb 15 19:04 UTC 2006 |
Re #253: That may be an accurate *historical* summary. That is, when I was too
young to have any insight on what to believe, I took the testimony of the
resident "experts." You might call it a "working hypothesis." That's not the
*reason* I believe in whom I believe. I believe in God for the same reason I
believe in my parents. For what it's worth, I am entirely willing to let people
believe what they will. (Sometimes sharp contentions get to my temper and it
may not seem that way, but I always regret it afterward.) After all, it doesn't
harm *me* if someone not under my care believes even that east, for example, is
west. I will in some cases try to persuade them otherwise, just as I would try
to persuade someone who was trying to commit a gradual form of suicide to stop.
Re #263: That's what inevitably happens when you get a bunch of people
together. Look at the extreme variance within any semi-major political party.
Re #268: I have said before that the public school system seems to me to be an
indoctrination machine into the "religion" of atheism -- but we've been over
that ground before and I don't want to start that debate again.
Decorating public places with religious symbols is not necessarily forcing your
beliefs on other people; a display could easily include only symbols of
religions that those designing it did not hold to.
For what it's worth, I don't like the commercialization of "Christmas" at all.
In the Christian liturgical calendar, the "Christmas season" begins December 25
and runs until the sixth of January, while the "Christmas" music on the radio
always begins around Thanksgiving and stops abruptly on Christmas Day.
Did you know that "holiday" by etymology means "holy day"?
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gull
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response 272 of 432:
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Feb 15 19:10 UTC 2006 |
Re resp:250: Sure, if God made it somehow physically impossible for us
not to believe in Him, say by altering our brain chemistry, that would
be restricting free will. Simply providing clear evidence that he
exists, then allowing us to take it or leave it, would not. All this
sneaking around and refusing to provide any hard evidence doesn't serve
any obvious purpose to me, if He exists.
(This is assuming free will exists at all -- but that's another
discussion. There's some evidence it doesn't even without a
supernatural being involved, and several tenets of Christianity also
call it into question.)
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tod
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response 273 of 432:
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Feb 15 19:10 UTC 2006 |
Syria is about 10% Christian. How would you like the idea of living there
with all the religious symbols "decorating" public places?
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kingjon
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response 274 of 432:
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Feb 15 19:38 UTC 2006 |
Re #272: The contention of many is that there *is* clear evidence that God
exists. If the evidence is (or if you prefer "were") in fact there and you've
decided to leave it, you'd still be saying "all this sneaking around and
refusing to provide hard evidence ..."
I will admit that *current* free will is not a central doctrine of the Church
as a whole, since it has proven impossible to come to an agreement on it. It is
simply the explanation of how some of the unclear passages fit together that
fits the text best in my view.
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kingjon
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response 275 of 432:
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Feb 15 19:41 UTC 2006 |
Edit of #274: My reference to *current* free will. I meant to add that I
haven't found any debate on the point that before the Fall human beings had
free will; strict Calvinists (and others) believe that this capacity for free
will was damaged in the Fall and is only repaired by the Holy Spirit -- who
lives inside Christians.
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tod
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response 276 of 432:
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Feb 15 20:06 UTC 2006 |
There is more evidence that aliens exist. Do they have the Holy Spirit in
them? How about black people? Do Jews? What's the criteria and how has it
changed over the years?
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rcurl
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response 277 of 432:
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Feb 15 20:09 UTC 2006 |
"Free will" is a neurobiological question, and the overwhelming conclusion
is that all living organisms have free will in the sense that they have
unreliable choice mechanisms between options.
I think Jon and I have a belief in common. I agree completely with his
observation that "it doesn't harm *me* if someone not under my care
believes even that east, for example, is west."
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bru
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response 278 of 432:
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Feb 15 20:13 UTC 2006 |
It hasn't changed from God's point of view. Humans, being imperfect, nake
the wrong choices at times.
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nharmon
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response 279 of 432:
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Feb 15 20:14 UTC 2006 |
The mexican restaurant I ate at last night was staffed by latin
americans who obviously had difficulty speaking english. Would it have
been rude for me to try to speak to them in spanish?
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kingjon
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response 280 of 432:
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Feb 15 20:15 UTC 2006 |
Free will is only a purely neurobiological question if the body is the person
and the person is the body. I realize that's one of your assumptions, but it
isn't one I'm willing to grant you.
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