response 250 of 269:

May 27 09:37 UTC 2002

Scott, where have I ever said that "Arabs are just evil by nature"?

How did it get to this? The "refugee camps" from which many of the
suicide bombers originate were created by -- Arab governments (not Israel).
Suicide bombings in Israel began shortly after the signing of the Oslo
Peace Accords, when Israel was in the process of withdrawing from the
disputed territories and there was a track for the creation of an
independent Palestinian Arab state.

The irony is that the people behind the suicide bombings are the people
who are against this peace process. As they themselves often state, they
attack Israel because it exists. They don't need the excuses,
rationalizations and justifications that you conjure for them.

If Arafat and his PA thugs hadn't squandered western aid on weapons and
fattening their own Swiss bank accounts, instead putting that money into
building infrastructure -- attracting foreign investment to better the lot
of these people, perhaps it wouldn't have come to this? (Perhaps if they
and others wouldn't pay the families of suicide bombers while turning a
blind eye to their activities....)

If the new PA textbooks (funded by the World Bank and European countries)
had been geared towards peaceful coexistence rather than militancy, maybe
it wouldn't have come to this? (Due to concern with the results, such
funding has been withdrawn.)

If Arafat would have lived up to the ONE tangible commitment he made in
the Oslo Agreement -- maintaining security in areas under his control,
perhaps we wouldn't be debating if he "can't" or "won't" control these
terrorist groups?  (Evidence that he funds these groups tends to suggest
that the question is itself a diversion.)

Like the multitude of Arab dictators, you want to blame Israel for all the
ills of the Arab world (they'd have to invent Israel if it didn't exist).
But it's funny to see the Grex Left falling out of sync with much of the
Arab world. While the latter is waking up to the need for reform, some
here wish to blindly continue to blame Israel, to blame the victim.

If Scott were alive in the 19th century, he'd ask what the Jews did to
deserve being the target of blood libels and pogroms (well, it might be
true that they used Christian/Muslim blood for holiday meals and, afterall,
they were Christ-killers). If he were alive in 1929, he'd claim that the
Jews of Hebron must have provoked the Arabs into massacring them (it doesn't
matter that the Jews didn't destroy Al Aqsa, as shown in forged pictures
distributed by the Mufti, that they could've or allegedly wanted to is
sufficient).  Sixty years ago, he'd suggest that the Jews must have done
something to bring upon them the Holocaust (perhaps buying into the falsehood
that Jews were too rich and powerful in Germany).

Scott may distance himself from this, and perhaps rightly so, but he is
applying the same presumptuous thinking to the current issues. If bad
things are happening to the Jews, they must have done something to deserve
it and bring it to this point, to bring it upon themselves. I won't attribute
this to Scott, but this is the inherent anti-semitic argument that some
people pursue. (This is usually done while absolving the Arabs of any and
all responsibility.)

Proof that the "occupation" is "brutal" is that terrorism exists (or
various myths propagated in the Arab press and elsewhere which we've
already discussed), ignoring the historical analysis that terrorism
cannot exist under a "brutal occupation" but that it thrives in open
and largely free societies. Ignoring that for all practical purposes,
the "occupation" (Israeli administration) ended with the creation of
the Palestinian Authority -- which rules over 99% of the Arab population
in the disputed territories).

How did we get to this? In once sentence, because the Arab powers that
be have rejected peaceful settlements in 1937, 1947, 1956, 1967, 1977...
and most recently in 2000 (Camp David & Sharem), 2001 (Taba & Tenet) and
2002 (Zinni).

For further reading (from my "typical" and "biased" sources):

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/42968.htm
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20020524-865799.htm
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/143/oped/The_message_in_the_Palestinian_m
aps%2B.shtml
http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/story.html?f=/stories/20020518/269776.html

response 252 of 269:

May 27 17:29 UTC 2002

Scott, grow up already. You were the one who just stuffed words into my
mouth (as if I said anything resembling that all Arabs are evil) while
being careful to say that I don't ascribe most of what I said to you.
But if you don't like the logical extension of your argument, perhaps
you should reconsider it.

Tell me, what did the children at an ice-cream shoppe in Petah Tikva do
to "deserve" to be blown up?

response 254 of 269:

May 28 00:58 UTC 2002

Scott, I'm still waiting for you to share which "facts" are "questionable"
and which facts I have not properly supported.

I'm waiting for you to show where I said "Arabs are just evil by nature".

I'm waiting for you to tell me how you can complain about my "typical"
sources and then complain that I don't provide sources. What is wrong,
for example, with the 4 sources I just provided, from the Washington
Times, NY Post, Boston Globe and the Canadian National Post?

Let me ask you again: is your only purpose here to be a twit -- to heckle
and harass?

response 256 of 269:

May 28 01:29 UTC 2002

Just for fun, here's a site that claims there are no suicide bombers,
that it's all a horrible public relations campaign:
 http://www.public-action.com/911/toothfairies.html

And here's a site where someone with an Irish name apologizes for having
threatened to commit suicide:
 http://www.observer.co.uk/nireland/story/0,11008,619568,00.html

response 258 of 269:

May 28 06:57 UTC 2002

re#257: Re 1.) Prior to the british occupation during WW-I that land
                was part of Turkey (Ottoman Empire).
           2.) Quite a bit of the significant land was owned by my
                ancestors who conquered it fair and square, what 
                about my rights. 
           3.) The IDF/Israel seized much of the land it currently
                has colonies on citing in part Turk/Ottoman law.
                Some figures have as much as 35% of the occupied
                territories claims by the colonialists (water rights
                etc...).

response 260 of 269:

May 28 14:37 UTC 2002

Question for the floor.  Do you think the parents of children that have 
engage in suicide bombings should be somehow held responsible, that is 
if the children in question were still considered minors at the time of 
the incident?

In general I do not subscribe to such a theory unless it is clear that 
the parents were somehow neglectful or encouraged certain patterns of 
behaviour (eg. what is suspected of the Columbine pair's parents), but 
given the context of the discussion, I was curious to see what people 
thought.  I myself do not necessarily think so, unless the criteria I 
stated can be proven.

response 262 of 269:

May 28 17:53 UTC 2002

Leeron, I never actually claimed you'd said "Arabs are just evil by nature".
Rather, by your constant postings of anything which shows Arabs in a bad
light (yes, they do occasionally do bad things; so do the Israelis) you've
shown your racism.  

response 264 of 269:

May 29 01:12 UTC 2002

There you go accusing Scott of being delinquent in sharing those
"questionable facts", after you accuse him of being juvenile.  I guess
that makes him a juvenile delinquent, huh?

response 266 of 269:

May 29 14:06 UTC 2002

so we send them to a buddhist area .. 

response 268 of 269:

May 29 22:50 UTC 2002

India and Pakistan have agreed upon borders?  News to me....