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Grex > Music2 > #167: Recorded Music Delivery Formats Past & Present |  |
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| 25 new of 126 responses total. |
shf
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response 25 of 126:
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Jan 3 09:30 UTC 1999 |
which is no doubt why they changed the spelling, lest some hapless confused
consumer purchase a Diamond Reo and maim himself trying to listen to mp3s
with it.
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keesan
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response 26 of 126:
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Jan 3 21:20 UTC 1999 |
16 RPM vinyl, we get old phonos that play it, has anyone ever heard one?
CED - capacitive electronic disk. Used for movies with sound. Same size
disk as the large laser disks but no lasers involved. Two styluses that read
the top and bottom capacitance of a spinning 12" disk, no physical contact?
We had two come through Kiwanis, and about 50 disks, from the seventies?
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steve
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response 27 of 126:
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Jan 3 22:03 UTC 1999 |
Wow! That was the format that RCA bet the farm on, against laser
disks. After a hundred playings or so, they start to get noticeably
worse. If thats connected with Pioneer or RCA I'm just about certain
that there is physical contact with the media.
16PRM vinyl? I've never heard of that. How old is that?
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keesan
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response 28 of 126:
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Jan 3 22:52 UTC 1999 |
Common on the older phonos for 16 RPM, maybe 60's or 70s? I don't think i
have ever played anything audio 100 times, video even less likely.
16 RMP might have been ok for voice, like the slower speeds on tapes.
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scott
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response 29 of 126:
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Jan 3 23:33 UTC 1999 |
Instructional records were often 16RPM. Remember those ones that went with
film stripts?
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gull
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response 30 of 126:
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Jan 4 01:56 UTC 1999 |
Isn't it true that CDs get less and less accurate as you go up in frequency?
It seems like it'd stand to reason that the closer you get to the Nyquist
limit at 22,050 Hz, the more all the waveforms would resemble a square wave
instead of their real character.
At any rate, the only album which I claim to be able to hear a difference on
is Boston's self-titled first album. The reason isn't any inherent problem
wit the format; it's that the master tape apparently degraded between when
the LP was mastered and when it was digitized for CD. There's some very
noticable dropouts on the CD release I have, the most obvious being one in
the cymbal track at about 00:39 on track one.
There's also, sadly, a lot of vinyl releases that never made it onto CD at
all...
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scott
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response 31 of 126:
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Jan 4 02:04 UTC 1999 |
A lot of reissue CDs are/were made with non-master tapes, hence worse sound
quality.
The nyquist limit is how high you can reproduce a sine wave. A lot depends
on having a good low-pass filter, though, and that was the weakest point of
many early CD players.
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danr
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response 32 of 126:
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Jan 4 13:32 UTC 1999 |
As long as the sampling rate is at least 44kHz, all of the frequency content up
to 22 kHz will be preserved. As Scott points out, however, just because the
information is on the CD it doesn't mean that the player can faithfully
reproduce it.
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krj
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response 33 of 126:
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Jan 4 19:05 UTC 1999 |
((winter agora #44 <---> music #167))
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krj
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response 34 of 126:
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Jan 4 20:15 UTC 1999 |
I vaguely recall that 16 RPM vinyl records were used for "talking books"
for the blind back in the 1960s and 1970s.
The MP3 format is sending the RIAA, the recorded music trade group, into
hysterics because of the ease of shipping bootleg MP3 tracks around
the internet. The RIAA sued in an attempt to stop the Diamond Rio
portable MP3 player from being shipped to consumers; the RIAA won a
preliminary temporary injunction but it was overturned after about a
week. The case turns on some tricky definitions of digital recording
copyright law -- basically, when the RIAA agreed to the Home Recording
Rights Act, they never foresaw that the PC would become a general purpose
digital copying machine.
News coverage of the case is summarized in the music conference item
titled "Changes In The Music Business."
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keesan
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response 35 of 126:
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Jan 5 02:46 UTC 1999 |
This sounds fun, we will read all about it there. Jim points out that the
above is a pun on 'general purpose calculating machine'. He giggles.
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orinoco
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response 36 of 126:
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Jan 5 15:21 UTC 1999 |
Something that has never made sense to me: why are the smaller records (45's)
made to spin faster than the big ones (LP's at 33 1/3 RPM)? It would seem to
me that the opposite would make more sense: make the small records spin at
the same speed or slower so you can fit as much as possible in the limited
space. Is there some reason, other than just convention, that it doesn't work
that way?
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steve
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response 37 of 126:
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Jan 5 17:00 UTC 1999 |
Audio quality, I thought was the reason that 45's spun at that
speed. In theory they have more bandwidth than 33's do. I'm not
sure it worked out that way in reality, owing to cut cutting in
the manufacturing process, but that should be why.
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krj
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response 38 of 126:
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Jan 5 17:58 UTC 1999 |
The history, if I remember it properly, is that Columbia Records
developed the 33 1/3 RPM Long Playing Record, and RCA countered with
the 45 RPM 7" record, rather than going along with Columbia's format.
This isn't quite as wacky as it sounds. In the 78 RPM era every
disc was a single; if you had a collection of them, they came in a big
book with record sleeves, which was called an "album." The RCA 45 RPM
discs were more convenient to handle than the 78s.
But I don't know why those standard speeds were chosen.
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rcurl
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response 39 of 126:
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Jan 5 18:41 UTC 1999 |
The response in #37 is the beginning of part of the answer. What matters
for bandwidth is the linear speed of the groove at the needle. This is
equal to the rotation rate in radians/second times the radius to the
needle. The 45 rpm record had recording down to a much smaller radius
than the 33 rpm records and therefore, for each bandwidth, had to rotate
faster. The 33 rpm recording was made possible by using a medium, vinyl,
that permitted good reproduction of finer grooves and hence shorter
wavelengths for the grooves (to reproduce higher frequencies).
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rcurl
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response 40 of 126:
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Jan 5 18:54 UTC 1999 |
s/each/equal
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krj
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response 41 of 126:
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Jan 5 19:27 UTC 1999 |
What were the original 45 RPM records manufactured from, then?
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scott
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response 42 of 126:
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Jan 5 19:30 UTC 1999 |
33 appeared on the market years later, after they found there was demand and
also after audio quality of the various compenents had godden good enough.
Faster speed == higher quality sound, so 33 rpm would not be as good as 45
rpm, unless you also figure in distance from the center like krj said.
(Neat story: Les Paul [yes, therye was a guy named Les Paul] used to overdub
from one record lathe to another. By using 18" disks at 78rpm, he had *great*
sound)
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scott
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response 43 of 126:
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Jan 5 19:30 UTC 1999 |
Oop,s credit Rane with the explanation about diameter vs. speed.
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md
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response 44 of 126:
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Jan 5 21:21 UTC 1999 |
I have a 12" vinyl disk made to be played at 45 rpm. It's a product
of the late 1970s, when the industry was trying to find a good way
to transfer digital recordings to vinyl. Andre Previn conducting two
Gershwin numbers. It's the only disk of that type I can remember
seeing.
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krj
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response 45 of 126:
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Jan 5 22:34 UTC 1999 |
(I have a similar recording, 12" 45 RPM LP-ish length: THE SOUND OF THE
SAND, by David Thomas and the Pedestrians, a spinoff project from Pere Ubu
with Richard Thompson on guitar. It's from the same era as md's disk.
I will have to go grubbing on the web when I get a chance. I could have
sworn that the introduction of 33 and 45 records were very contemporary.
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scott
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response 46 of 126:
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Jan 5 22:37 UTC 1999 |
I can't see how. They are vastly different in terms of capacity, and that
would be a hard sell for the company selling the 45s with such limited time
capacity. Maybe there were 10 or 12" 45rpm instead of the "single" size we
all know?
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eieio
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response 47 of 126:
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Jan 5 22:52 UTC 1999 |
Re many responses ago...
Yes, there are Audio DVDs. The sampling rate is something like 96K, though
I've only seen them as demos. Given that DVD has caught on as rapidly as it
has, it wouldn't surprise me to see Audio DVDs available through the usual
retail channels sometime in 1999.
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lumen
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response 48 of 126:
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Jan 6 00:20 UTC 1999 |
it was re #18: Yep, yep, yep. The latest issue of Stereo Review reports the
possibility of a format war, since Audio DVD has a similar competitor-- forget
the name. Check it out.
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krj
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response 49 of 126:
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Jan 6 00:32 UTC 1999 |
I found a web page: http://ac.acusd.edu/History/recording/notes.html
From the section "War of the Speeds:"
1948 - Columbia introduces on June 21 the first 12-inch 33 1/3 rpm
microgroove LP vinylite record with 23-minute per side
capacity, developed by Peter Goldmark in 1947, using players
made by Philco
1949 - RCA Victor introduces 7-inch 45 rpm micro-groove
"Extended Play" vinylite record and player; later records made
of polystyrene
1951 - "war of the speeds" ends as Victor sells LPs and Columbia
sells 45s.
(end quote)
This source confirms what I recall about the marketing drive behind
the 45 rpm record.
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