response 25 of 56:

Nov 30 13:29 UTC 1994

(BEEEEEEP)  Sorry, wrong answer.  But you just stand there 
scratching your butt and it will probably dawn on you at some
point.  ;-)

response 27 of 56:

Dec 1 05:38 UTC 1994

<brighn is too busy scratching his butt to follow the conversation>

response 31 of 56:

Dec 5 00:26 UTC 1994

What's an FM?

response 35 of 56:

Dec 6 03:56 UTC 1994

Yeah, I think your theory bears out, Valerie.  I think that a man who has
an image of feminitinity that he pursues in women generally has an ideal
of masculinity for himself, and vice-versa.  Although, now that I think
about it, both of my sisters are "feminine" but one married 2 macho men
and the other married one of the gentlest men I have ever met.  But then
again, they're splitting up soon ...  I don't know.  Perhaps the question
is moot without defining "masculine" and "feminine" carefully.  And I don't
know how to do that.

response 37 of 56:

Dec 6 12:25 UTC 1994

I'd like "masculine" and "feminine" traits defined.  What kind of
attitudes or behaviors are you folks noticing and putting into 
those categories?

response 39 of 56:

Dec 8 17:26 UTC 1994

I'm still curious about Valerie's response #33.  There seems to be a
feeling among some that "less feminine women are attracted to less
masculine men" and vice-versa.  What characteristics are you (those who
agree) calling feminine and masculine?  Maybe what you are seeing is more
a response to old, strict gender roles being ditched as unworkable for an
enlightened generation not willing to follow the well-worn path?  And
maybe someone who is educated and sensitized to these issues and confident
enough to leave them behind is also looking for a partner willing to do
the same?  And maybe, just maybe, that "less feminine and less masculine"
stuff is really just honest humanism in drag.  'Bout time. 


Just curious, Valerie, did you have to pay good money for this
teacher's class?  He or she sounds pretty stuck with some old
and cumbersome gender baggage.

response 41 of 56:

Dec 17 05:37 UTC 1994

Re: #39 and gender roles:  While I condsider myself to be relatively
enlightened, I tend to think that some aspects of traditional gender
roles are valid.  I don't think that they should be used to subjugate
one sex or the other, but I think that some roles tend to work out
due to physiology or reproductive strategies that have been in
place for millions of years.  Just because we think we're a new
generation and won't tolerate old or outworn ideas doesn't mean
that we won't find ourselves falling into them in time, even with
the best intentions.  New doesn't always mean better, nor does old.
This doesn't work for all people or situations.  My personal opinion
is that our physiology plays a large part in our behavior.  Some
folks aren't equipped for the well-worn path and should instead
choose one that makes sense for them.

response 43 of 56:

Dec 19 15:25 UTC 1994

Okay, here I go.  Get the kerosene and matches: Depending on your
lifestyle, especially if you're one of the back to nature types,
women (freqently but not always) show aptitude for and seem to
enjoy domestic chores that require more dexterity and less brute
force.  Many of us testosterone-crazed males enjoy going out and
nearly killing ourselves felling trees, hauling timber, chopping
wood, etc.  My personal opinion is that this is an outgrowth of
physical strength and those wonderful hormones that do so much
to mould our behavior.  However, if your wife would rather be
out chopping wood while you're fixing dinner, that's fine too.
What I'm saying is that you should not feel compelled to either
follow a traditional gender role OR discard it.  To each his or
her own abilities and wants.

response 45 of 56:

Dec 23 00:36 UTC 1994

I certainly won't light a flame to your response Brett, but it is such an
overgeneralization, I can;'t believe you believe it.  Most of the men I know
do not like heavy physical or manual labor.  They use their brains to make
money and then generally dont have the desire, time or inclination to "chop
or haul timber".  And these are *very* masculine men who adore women and
are sexy as hell.  When I use the word masculine, Mary and Katie, all I mean
is attractive to women.  (Maybe hairy chest and deep voice 8-).)  

response 47 of 56:

Dec 23 02:56 UTC 1994

Re #45: Yes, it's an overgeneralization, but what can you do in a few
paragraphs?  I understand what you mean by masculine, but to me, at
least, part of being a man is getting in touch with elemental side.
I enjoy working with all my strength and craft against nature.  This
often results in sweating like a and pig coming home sore.  I'm not
saying that you have to do something like dig ditches to feel like this.
It's just that I tend to appreciate art that arises from struggle:
a carving of wood or stone for me holds much more satisfaction than
a painting.  For many years I've been in a profession that doesn't
require a whole lot of physical anything.  It's only after I've gone
out of my way to find much more physical ways of expressing myself
that I've felt more complete as a man.  I'm not saying that you
have to do this to "be a man", just that I've found it more
fulfilling.  Some women do find this sort perverse nature appealing
in a man.  (At least my wife makes claims to that effect.)  My
guess is that such women are in the minority, however.

response 49 of 56:

Dec 23 23:59 UTC 1994

I find many gay men attractive, so yes, if I use "attractive to me" in the def
inition of masculine, gay men can be masculine (specially if they have
hair on their chests 8-)).  I have also found gay men sexy.  But, what I
really mean to say about this is that I think "masculine": is a very
subjective adjective.