response 25 of 51:

Jan 19 20:39 UTC 1996

(thank you, Katie... I was going to comment in kind, but felt it would
be less welcome from a male...)

response 27 of 51:

Jan 20 01:58 UTC 1996

I don't dangle, Katie... I stand up and get counted.

JUST KIDDING RIGHT BACK :)

there, we've done our foray into tasteless sexist humor...

response 29 of 51:

Feb 2 21:26 UTC 1996

"not victims.. survivors" is cliched?Let me tell you something. I was sexually
abused when I was a child. Only happened once and is not as horrible as some
stories out there, but it still happened and put me in 8 months of therapy.
And the last thing I am going to do is let some perverted asshole's actiosn
label me as a "victim". It takes a lot of a person to deal with and function
after something like that happens to you. Yes you do feel victimized
sometimes, and it takes guts to pull through those feelings. So do NOT
belittle what me, and other people have had to go through just to be alive.
I got through one of the most sick and horrible things one person can do to
a child. When you experience this yourself (and I hope none of you do), only
then wlkl you even have the slightest clue as to what we have gone through
and why are damn well survivors.

response 31 of 51:

Feb 4 06:27 UTC 1996

It's still a meaningless phrase. You were a victim and are a survivor.
The two terms are not antonyms.

response 33 of 51:

Feb 5 06:52 UTC 1996

He may very well have been abused himself, I don't know. And I'm sorry, but
I prefer not to think of myself as a victim at any time. I don't blame him
for the faults I have now. Yes, I suppose you could say what happened to me
was victimization. But as I said earlier, I am not going to let anyone's
actions towards me define who I am, be it when I was 8 or 80. When does one
stop being a victim? When I decide to not let it bother me anymore? When I
stop having nightmares? Ha. I became a survivor the second I got out of it
alive.

response 35 of 51:

Feb 14 21:31 UTC 1996

I don't agree with using the "i was abused as a kid" thing should justify
actions but it does explain WHY someone may have hurt another person. Oddly
enough, some people who were abused repetadly do it again as adults because
they honestly do not know any other way, or think that this really IS how it
should be.

response 37 of 51:

Feb 16 13:43 UTC 1996

In some interviews with men convicted of beating their wives, they'd usually
grown up watching dad pumel the snot out of mom. They grew up thinking women
liked, and needed, to be knocked into place. Then again there wqere some who
also saw this at home and vowed never to be like dad.

response 39 of 51:

Aug 4 08:50 UTC 1997

Pornography simplyfies the things, and by silplyfying (blblbl, simplyfying)
come the generalizations and prejudices.
e.g. women like to have a man jerk off in her face just before he comes.
Don't make me laugh.
Fortunately I do not get turned on by pornography (the only thing that does
turn me on is making love myself. It's the interaction that matters).
But what has to be kept in mind is the difference between eroticism and
pornography (9,5 weeks did turn me on. Btw, I saw it with my ex). 
Another thing that certainly doesn't urn me on are the general love scenes
in almost any particular film. What does that consist of? Man meet woman and
before you know he lies with his pants and socks on in bed and she hurries
to let her flimsy thingy slide down her ankles with a spotlight from behind.

response 41 of 51:

Aug 6 03:09 UTC 1997

Mary, I am not talking about taking responsibility for my own feelings.
Or taking responsibility for evaluationg a relationship (though both
parties involved would be doing that anyway).

I *am* saying that pornography can be used by either sex (men OR women)
to make the other feel inadequate, embarrassed, pressured etc.

The difference is (and this is what gets me irritated - irationally perhaps)
that it's easier and more likely for a man to
mean it when he drools over pornography (i.e. it DOES turn him on)
than for a woman (i.e. it usually does not turn her on).

I think that may very well be a physiological difference between men
and women... the old "men pursue, women get pursued" theory.
Maybe it IS true that men are programmed to react to images of women and
graphic sex. Maybe it IS true that men have the active role in sex
and women have the (relatively) passive role.

So what I am really saying is that I envy the role of the doer, the 
person of action, the initiator, the pursuer etc.

You know, they say that in a date women have the power because they
know from the start if they are going to go to bed with their date, and
he's going through it *hoping* for it. (I know stereotypes - bear with me)

Well, I guess the irritation is at what I perceive to be a POWER IMBALANCE.

Because the man still has the power to ask or not to ask for a date.
(yes i know, vice versa too, same for women) And the man has the power to
take his attentions elsewhere (so do women I know, no inequity here)

But, it seems to me (and this may be because I am the only person to have
this personal experience), that men are more easily and GENUINELY distracted.
By other women. By pornography. 

SO.
That's the difference. And watching pornography makes you notice it.
"hey, he's really into this. I am not really. Wow, how easy it is
for him to get turned on by anything that has a pulse. Wow, how much harder
it is for me to find something I find erotic. For me it's rare. And it
depends on a LOT more than muscles, erotic/porn acts and looks.
It takes a story, a mood, something to admire etc."

Maybe what I perceive to be a power imbalance is not one. But it does make
you think that sexually , in a relationship women are easily replacable -
in terms of what the man finds a sexual turn on. But not vice versa.

Come to think of it, that is not to say that the man is always the only
turn on (and the only one) in a relationship. Only that for women, it's
more rare (I know - personal experience; may not be true for all women)
to get turned on , PERIOD.

Oh , I don't know.

response 43 of 51:

Aug 6 07:46 UTC 1997

Why should you?
Desire based upon superficial things like two-dimensial (moving) graphics is
in my humble opinion not satsfactory, for one, Paper or celluloid do generally
not turn me on.
Old fashioned men (aka real men) may still consider themselves the calassic
hunter and stalker of women, but methinks it is about time that that role
should be ended. For some time I thought that emancipation of men towards a
new role in life and relationships was getting somewhere.
Then, suddenly without any warning at all it switched dramatically over to
the old roles, and men were (and that was nbew) supposed to have bulging
muscles and a sixpack below the chest. Most shocking was to hear that in
sexuality it appeared that the sensitivity and appreciation were equally
replaced by a zapp-like hap snap quicky and rough attitude.
Illustrated by a move in the Netherlands called courtiers and studs (or
something like that in english), which portretted women having two kinds of
relationships. Courtiers for good conversation and empathy and riugh sex with
the studs. Eventually all women chose the latter.
I fear that feminism has had a blow in the face by it, mostly induced by the
media who (I guess) never favoured feminism.
So, back to the basics?
Unfortunately I have been looking for active women all my life, for I believe
in total equality (or a balance) in a relationship and I like to treat my
partner as I would any human being I come across, but added with love of
course. NOwhere to be found it seems! Even the most straight edge feminists
around me turned into submissive blobs a sooon as they found a partner, who
was pleasantly surprised to discover he was nurtured all the time! I can't
believe it! But it seems that way. 
ADmitted, I exaggerate things a trifle, but anyway.
Desire should be felt within a relationship.

Question: has the time for sensitive, emancipated men passed?

response 45 of 51:

Aug 8 05:09 UTC 1997

Mary, let me clarify - I am NOT "blaming" someone for "making me feel
bad feelings". I am not "shifting the blame for those feelings to someone
else". It's not an issue of blame. It's not an issue of "oh, you hurt me,
stop doing that and change your behavior". The problem is NOT that "someone
else is making me feel inadequate".

I agree with you that one should be empowered, mature and in control and
should be able to own one's own feelings, deal with them, and act
responsibly without laying it all sloppily on everyone else like a wimp.
It's not blame. No no no.

I guess what I was confessing was something like "penis envy"... even though
I think that Freud is full of it and I never bought his stupid theories
in psychology.  What I was talking about is feeling left out , closed out
of that source of desire & erotic sensation. 
And maybe it IS due to the way women are brought up. Or maybe it is the
way porn. movies are made.

response 47 of 51:

Aug 9 06:15 UTC 1997

You know what I mean, Valerie. I think you do, indeed.

response 49 of 51:

Aug 11 09:40 UTC 1997

Exactly.
Val, I certainly do seldom come across that kind of women. Maybe it's a
generation thing. People my age are more inclined towards my kind of attitude.
The younger miserably fail these days, and the picure described by Walter fits
them. Even though, I've seen too often that submission appeared to come
naturally.
The case with me, I guess, I am too senstive. At least, that's what I've
heard in some events.