response 26 of 159:

Apr 13 22:49 UTC 1996

Sex is not bad or dirty, provided it's in a loving, adult relationship. Porn,
where it's twisted into nothing but selfish gratitfication and objectivity...
and sometimes abuse... is bad. And reducing the human body down to an object
with no dignity is dirty. I can't stop a person from buying PLayboy or going
to topless bars. I can't, and wouldn't burn the porn magazines and videos.
It does have the right to be there, but it's a sad commentary on our culture
that it is there.

Whatt I think mcpoz was getting at (and I aplogize 10,000 times over if I am
wrong) is that those who frequent topless bars and such obviously like the
idea of objectifying people, and most often  women. Someone who likes to see
the woman in the "service" role of a lap-dancing, "what can I do for you" 
arena can't have all that much respect for them. I know women can objectify
men as well, but look at the ratio of men's bars as opposed to places where
women could go. ... maybe the Chippendales come by every year or so.
Coincidence? I think not.

response 28 of 159:

Apr 14 01:14 UTC 1996

I agree it is "quite possible."  Now what percent of the people achieve that
separation?

response 32 of 159:

Apr 14 11:59 UTC 1996

I don't have the power of expression that some people have, but I have not
made my point clear.  I am not disputing this on an individual basis, or on
the basis of whether men or women are exclusively guilty of "dehumanizing."

My point was that it has a great societal effect and because of the fact that
males dominate the power structure, women may not be allowed to achieve their
potential.  If a woman objectifies a man, it does not carry over into the
education system, the workplace, the society in general as much as the reverse
case.  

response 34 of 159:

Apr 14 15:48 UTC 1996

Oh, but beeswing, I do consider myself a feminist.  But I'm most certainly
of a different breed of feminists than you. I'm of the sect that believes
if a behavior change is needed there is some amount of intellectual
integrity to changing your own behavior before expecting others to change
theirs.  If women feel pornography is wrong then women should cease
affiliation with the industry.  It's seems kinda silly to see the men as
the crux of the problem when women could shut down the industry by simply
not participating (changing their own behavior).  Porno films which show
only men and are only purchased by men really wouldn't pose much be much
of a feminist issue. And I really don't think women are forced like slaves
to be involved in pornography production.  They have a choice. 
Alternative employment is available.  The decision to be involved is
probably complex with money being only a part of the package, but it is,
indeed, each woman's decision.  And to deny that is to strip women of
power through lies.  With this issue especially, forget men, work on the
women. 
 
Two, be very careful that you don't project your hangups, modesty, sexual
practices (or lack of) into being normal for everyone. Erotica is not
wrong, bad, evil, or demeaning.  Lots of men like it and lots of women
like it.  Couples can partake and still respect each other in the morning. 
Reading or watching erotica does not make you blind, it won't make you
into a lustful neighbor, or a child-fondler.  If pornography (private,
among adults) bothers you then don't partake.  But don't, Paglia-like, try
to make it into another "poor women" thing or (mcpoz) suggest those who
watch a movie showing adults making love are unsuitable as teachers or
clergy or neighbors.  They tried that with homosexuality.  Didn't fly. 

response 36 of 159:

Apr 14 18:44 UTC 1996

Do NOT compare me to the evil Camille "If civilization were lef tin female
hands, we would still be livign in grass huts" Paglia. She is not a feminist.
I can understand you argument that the woman who are in the porn industry do
need help too. But the fact is men are overwhelmingly the ones who are getting
into this. Why is that?

And you tell me to not project my hang ups, and that people can use porn in
their opwn homes without bothering me. But when I have to drive by a topless
bar, A Hooters, or scan over the Playboys while looking for a copy of
Newsweek, then it DOES bother me and I have some say in it. You yourself seem
very adamant about porn, but you seem hesitant to admit you just might be
using it yourself. And porn is not "making love", honey. There i

response 38 of 159:

Apr 14 19:21 UTC 1996

Aside:  Please, beeswing, don't take my comments disagreeing
with you point of view as a sign of hostility.  Truth is I 
find your posts very interesting and read every one, closely.
I seldom agree with you but that's what makes conferencing
interesting.

I also think you would have been a magnificent md pseudo.
What a pity nobody gets into pseudos like that any more.
That we know of. ;-)

response 40 of 159:

Apr 14 23:18 UTC 1996

I seem to be agreeing with everything Mary says here lately.  #37 and #38
spoke for me, too.  I enjoy your posts too, beeswing, and admire your spirit.
It's your logic and your prejudices that I occasionally take issue with.

Re #39:  md is Michael Delizia, with whom you had a discussion a while back
in another item.  You may recall it.  A pseudo is an account created by
someone who already has another, more recognizable on-line identity.

response 42 of 159:

Apr 15 03:41 UTC 1996

What?  I'm just warming up! ;-)

response 44 of 159:

Apr 15 14:01 UTC 1996

why is is it that a movie depicting naked women doing sexual acts dehumanizing?
would a movie showing people <men or women> be getting blown awaybe
equally dehumanizing?
i saw braveheart.. the battle scenes did not make me want to go out and
attack men with my broadsword. <yes, i do have one>.

i saw psycho. it didnt make me want to stab someone in the shower...

look, people have sex. people kill each other.
people do all sorts of things, both good and bad.
just because i watch a movie or read a book about it, doesnt mean
i am going to go out and copy what i see.

would you want a boss who has seen every jean claude van damme movie
to guide your carreer? would you want your child in the same classroom
with a teacher who has seen the news story from scotland? the one
where those children were killed... i mean, what if that news story
gave your child's teacher *ideas*?

what if the veterinarian you take your pets to is not a vegetarian? would
you trust the doctor *not* to eat your pets? what if the vet was from
a culture where dog-eating was a treat? would you still trust her?

what if your mechanic saw one of those crash 'em up smokey and the bandit
movies? would you trust him to test drive your car?

response 46 of 159:

Apr 15 14:28 UTC 1996

Okay, okay, here I am.  

"beeswing" is not one of my pseudos.  I admit that beeswing's 
patriarchal conspiracy theory of why Chippendale's only comes around 
once a year ("Coincidence? I think not") is hilarious.  But I didn't 
write it, I swear!  Plus, I wouldn't use the word "impacted" the way 
beeswing uses it in response #13, even if you held a gun to my head.  

On the topic: I think the heart of beeswing's philosophy about 
pornography is in her response #26, and there's nothing feminist 
about it (sounds more like my Aunt Edna, actually): "Sex is not bad 
or dirty, provided it's in a loving, adult relationship."  No zipless 
fucks for her, in other words.  I'd tell her she doesn't know what 
she's missing, only I don't want to run even the tiniest risk of 
having my intentions misunderstood.  Anyway, she does add that she 
"wouldn't burn the porn magazines and videos," and she claims to 
believe that pornography "does have the right to be there," so as 
long as she's sincere about that I have no quarrel with her.  

response 48 of 159:

Apr 15 19:28 UTC 1996

perhaps if prostitution were legal, it would be safer and more
able to produce fair wages for the women.