|
|
| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 81 responses total. |
paiman
|
|
response 25 of 81:
| 
Jun 1 11:22 UTC 1995 |
Woah, it seems things kinda blew oputta proportion....I think
some things were misunderstood...
1) Thank you everyone who wrote something, i really appriate it,
2) I didn't ask you to critize staff or staffers (I apologize
for that) Tis issue isn't about them:)
^^^ but if that's your opinion...go ahead and say it, but no need
to sttack them...:)
a few corrections for things in replies:
3) yes clairey, I *CAN* read this :) but only until I choose to leave
4) if you do a ls of blob's dir, it sez "Don't ever fuk with me again"
then it sez "you wanted your life a living hell here it is..."
I did *NOT* say this is just the begining...i meant here it is,
now; i'm done with you. And when it sez don't edit my scripts
I do not mean not to edit them so that you add new commands
or anything, i mean don't edit them and take out all of my credit...
I saw 3 scripts in blob's dir that had my name removed outta the second line
so it said "made by blob@cyberspace.org", with no changes what-so-ever.
I told him to edit them back and give me credit for my "hard" work
and junk, but he acted like he didn't know what I was talking about
even after I showed him...
5) I did not tell blob to run a trojan horse or anything like that
to gain access to his account, he gave ryan1 full access to it
when ryan asked him to put him in his rhosts file. Ryan then
gave me access to it. (That was the only thing ryan did in this
whole shindig)
6) I said "I have been asked to leave by a staffer..." I did not
imply that that was the opinion of the entire staff or anything.
Thank you once again for all this action...
I will still be leaving; unless I change my mind and my account
is reinstated. (<-- please note that does not say :
account reinstated then i will change my mind...) I might
come back to grex, but like I hope I said in the letter;
you will not see me anywhere that I will get angered again...and
if you do, I will have some reasoning behind it. (ie party)
But I dunno if that'll happen.
Thank you,
-Avi
|
tree
|
|
response 26 of 81:
|
Jun 1 18:13 UTC 1995 |
You still rock my world.
|
paiman
|
|
response 27 of 81:
|
Jun 1 20:18 UTC 1995 |
Well, I have been offered access to my account back, under the grounds
that I behave and what happend before will not happen again.
I am accepting my account back, please note everyone, that staff offered
it back out of kindness, and I suppose because of this, dunno though.
I would like to thank you all who posted a reply, I really feel loved.
All I wanted was to get across the message to staff that I'm not a hoodlum,
before I left, and now I have my account back. Thank you everyone.
What will I do now that I have it back?
Well, first of all I'm just going to send some email...but, I will
not be on grex as often as I was before, simply for the fact that
I don't care for trouble.
-Avi
|
lettermn
|
|
response 28 of 81:
|
Jun 2 01:13 UTC 1995 |
First of all, i think we all know that this is ryan1
talking right now.
avi - thank you for telling the truth abotu
what i did. the only thing i did, was give avi access to the account. I had
no idea of the intentions of avi after he wanted to get in. avi has always
helped me when i asked him for a favor, so i returned the favor. I want avi to
come back to grex, he is a great asset. I also changed my mind, i also would
like to return to grex. I regret all my wrong-doings on grex. you really don't
know how valuable something is.. until its gone. Most of my friends on the
internet are grexers. and another thing, someone with a login name of
something that starts with a s (i dont' remember the whole thing) says i've
done bad things to her/him. I really don't know what he/she is talking about.
************************ also, tree- you rule... as always.
steve- another thing.. you said that i got around vandalsh. heh this is what
i really did:
1) I went into party under lettermn
2) I ran `login` and logged in as ryan1
3) i wrote you, and it said ryan1 instead of lettermn
4) i wanted to talk to you, but you were idle at the time.
and you said i changed my login shell to csh at that point.
I dont' think i did.. nor do i think that would of been possible.
geesh, i better quit typing soon, or I'll start sounding like STeve =)
********************************************************************************
********************************
I really want my 'ryan1' account back. I promise not to ever get into another
persons' account, or in this case, help another person get into another
persons' account.
You can reach me at:
ryan1@nether.net
lettermn@cyberspace.org
Or my web page: http://www.nether.net/~ryan1/html/home.html
I will keep reading and posing in this item.
|
lettermn
|
|
response 29 of 81:
|
Jun 2 01:14 UTC 1995 |
oopse, scratch posing... i meant to say posting
|
lando
|
|
response 30 of 81:
|
Jun 2 01:25 UTC 1995 |
one more thing. When avi occasionaly booted someone it was cause they
ey deserved it. He did not do it cause he felt like bootin someone and i
remember countless times when he restrained himself from bootin ppl cause he
did not want to get in trouble. I think what avi did was good and i would do
it too do it too if i knew how. He was like the enforcer of party he kept it
fun and you didn't have to worry about bein criticized with avi around cause he
would take care of it if he saw fit. I think he made a mistake yes but i still
t think for all the good he did that he should be punished but not banned.
|
lettermn
|
|
response 31 of 81:
|
Jun 2 01:48 UTC 1995 |
i really don't see how you can punish a user. wasn't this discussed in item
35?
|
spamman
|
|
response 32 of 81:
|
Jun 2 02:15 UTC 1995 |
Well, i know this isnt saying musch, but Abi was always cool to me, and if it
weren't forhim, i would hvae never found this place (Am i helping or hurting
here?) Anyway, Avi was never an asshole to me, and i identify with his reasons
for his action. he was frustrated that the people who come on hre and are
malicious about their actions and DO set out to cause people harm or bother or
worry get away with everything, and wanyted to do something that served them
right , for justice.
Admittedly, this was not his responsibility, but the more i think about it, the
more i wonder who is the more wrong. Is it better to just let the "evil" people
get away with everything and oppress us in our cybercommunity, or to take
action against them by doing "vigilante" things like messing with their
accounts or flooding, etc?
I know there is anarchy on the NEet, but there are those who are not
responsible enough to use it wisely, and they make it miserable for the rest of
us. Avi is not one of these people, but he is one of the people who wanted to
do something about it. And that's what he gets...
Thats all i cna say right now, cuz i dont know what is ot be done, but i feel
that, in a word (or 2) avi should be reinstated to Grex...
Kris, the bad typist
|
selena
|
|
response 33 of 81:
|
Jun 2 03:25 UTC 1995 |
<Selena taps lando on the shoulder- "Ahem!">
He's *been reinstated, as of response 27, silly goose!
<Selena hugs avi
|
tree
|
|
response 34 of 81:
|
Jun 2 16:50 UTC 1995 |
Still rockin my world...
|
lando
|
|
response 35 of 81:
|
Jun 2 19:06 UTC 1995 |
sorry about that i didn't have time to read all of them i did not know he was
comin back> <Yeh-yah-wistle-wistle-clap-clap->
|
janc
|
|
response 36 of 81:
|
Jun 3 00:06 UTC 1995 |
Comments:
- I think the staff acted properly here. Staff does have an obligation
to reign in vandalism and violations of account privacy to their
best ability.
- Shutting down a person's account may seem pointless on an open access
system, but after years of experience I have found it an amazingly
effective way of getting through to most people. People get very
attached to their logins.
- As a programmer, I sympathize with Avi's annoyance at a person who
allegedly copied his work without attributing it properly. This is
seriously low. But you have to find ways to respond that you can
feel as good about if they come into the public eye as you do about
your scripts. How that can be done depends on the circumstances, which
in this case I don't know. One might write up a file documenting the
theft, and circulate it in whatever online community this person
seeks respect. Often there isn't a damned thing you can do that has
any significant effect, but in the end these poor crums who are so
lacking in creativity that they have to steal stuff from others will
manage to punish themselves more than adequately. If you are a Maker,
you have better things to do than squabble with Dittoheads.
- One of the sad paradoxes of this kind of system is that the
"punishments" that can be applied to people are mostly social.
Thus people who care about other users are much easier to hurt than
people who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. I don't know
Avi, but his strong reaction to the staff's fairly mild action seems to
indicate that he's very much a person who we'd like to see stay around.
|
jwp
|
|
response 37 of 81:
|
Jun 3 09:00 UTC 1995 |
Well even though he's been re-instated...I want to put my two cents in
anyway...Avi though getting annoyed at people at times has helped alot of
people out and been a good friend to me and others...We all loose our cool
and mistakes are made...But you can't honestally say that the other party
was absolutly not guilty of anything...And No I'm not condoning what he
did...but I think sometimes that the big picture is missed...I do belive
from what I've seen...avi has never taken anyone on who didn't provoke or
ask for it...yes one time someone actually asked him to mess them up...now
I just feel that while not condoneable his actions where in some ways
just...and sometimes we need to look at everything from a wide and not a
narrow perspective If this seems to run in circles I was up all night and
it's 5 in the morning sorry about that...
|
paiman
|
|
response 38 of 81:
|
Jun 3 18:30 UTC 1995 |
Hey Justin, you rule, my man! :)
-Avi
|
srw
|
|
response 39 of 81:
|
Jun 3 19:16 UTC 1995 |
I think the support that has been shown here for Avi is definitely
going to affect positively the way Avi is viewed by the staff here.
The staff wants to encourage users who have Grex's best interests at heart.
It was spamman who asked whether it is a greater evil to do vigilante
justice or just to let the "evil" people have their way. Consider
what would happen if every user on Grex exercised this justification.
The system would pure anarchy, and not much fun for most people to use.
The staff has been trusted by the board to keep the system running
smoothly. Avi appears to have learned that he cannot be a vigilante
on Grex, and that is good. The staff members are bound to come to see
Avi in a completely different way.
Like Jan, I also appreciate the frustration of having ones work stolen.
I fully agree with his suggested responses.
|
kerouac
|
|
response 40 of 81:
|
Jun 4 00:40 UTC 1995 |
I just think grex needs to have as few people upset at it as
possible. Grex does not need to be the target of hackers or petty
bureacrats or anyone else. Staff obviously knew that avi and ryan1
are young folks, but there could be serious problems if staff pissed
off a real hacker like a mitnick or someone. The law of the street is
if you dont want to get hurt, mind your own business and stay out of the
way!
|
janc
|
|
response 41 of 81:
|
Jun 4 01:06 UTC 1995 |
The staff will not and should not be shivering in its boots for fear that
some self-proclaimed "hacker" will wipe out the system. The whole basic
rationale for Grex is the idea that we can welcome strangers into our
home and trust them not to abuse our hospitality.
Grex and M-Net have been dealing with troublesome users for a combined
total of about 16 years, and have managed to piss off only a few users to the
point where they tried to harm the system, and those few attacks were
thoroughly lame. Sure there are lots of people, even some who use Grex,
who could hose the system seriously if they wanted. Turns out that a
remarkably large number of those people who are smart enough to do this
are also smart enough to tell their friends from their enemies, even in
the heat of a disagreement.
We can trust our users. We can even criticize and complain about our
user's bad behavior and apply our lame punishments to them, and still trust
them. This system is ruled by trust and generousity, not by the mythical
elite bad-ass hackers.
|
janc
|
|
response 42 of 81:
|
Jun 4 01:08 UTC 1995 |
PS: If we lived by "the law of the street" and wanted to "mind our own
business and stay out of the way," the first step to getting out of the
way would be to close that big open door called "newuser" so the street
wasn't running through our living room.
We do not live by the law of the street.
|
peacefrg
|
|
response 43 of 81:
|
Jun 4 15:50 UTC 1995 |
Avi rocks. He's a great guy. I just wish he would have done this to somebody
else besides blob. I know somebody who severely needs it too. However
now I see what happens if I do something that harsh. I think I'll just
ignore it.
Welcome Back Avi. I would have missed you man.
|
sidhe
|
|
response 44 of 81:
|
Jun 5 02:09 UTC 1995 |
Not to mention you'll be suspect #1 _if_ something happens, now.
Ah, the trials and tribulations of an open system..
No, it is true that where the laws of the street apply, so do deadbolts.
Let us NOT go that far. I do not condone avi's actions, but I must say
I do understand them. I also do not condone staff's reaction..
It would seem that there would be a far better solution to this
situation, had the reaction not been so hasty. It would, for example,
given time for an item to be entered here, telling of the done deed, and
figuring what to do. Email is then sent to the offenders, letting them
know that they are on "trial" for their misdeeds, and that they need to
"appear" here, in said item, to tell their side.
Now, I'm not suggesting this sort of lienience be extended to the
one-use, hack-and-run account, but only to those who have been part of
this community for a while, as both avi and ryan1 have. As it turns out,
ryan1 did little to nothing, and still had his account shut down.
|
janc
|
|
response 45 of 81:
|
Jun 5 17:26 UTC 1995 |
Would you feel the same had it been your account that had been hosed?
In anycase, I'm not convinced that public lynching is a good way to handle
these things. It shouldn't be a popularity contest to determine what is
to be done with these things. The staff *must* use their own judgement
and not defer everything to be frabbled over in the co-op conference.
|
davel
|
|
response 46 of 81:
|
Jun 5 17:35 UTC 1995 |
What Jan just said.
I'm *really* perturbed at the number of responses that seem to suggest that
messing with another user's account is fine if that person's done
something or other to get you mad first.
|
peacefrg
|
|
response 47 of 81:
|
Jun 5 17:35 UTC 1995 |
He had it hosed for a reason. Plagerism is the worst thing you can ever
do to a person. Plus, if you have never run into a hacker wannabe,
they are annoying as hell and richly deserve whatever they get.
|
peacefrg
|
|
response 48 of 81:
|
Jun 5 17:36 UTC 1995 |
<James looks up and realizes that #46 slipped in before his response.>
|
sidhe
|
|
response 49 of 81:
|
Jun 6 03:39 UTC 1995 |
David, perturbed or not, it is ther, in front of you.. many here
do NOT agree with your line of thiking.
Jan, lynching is more akin to what happened to ryan1. His
involvement was minimal. If he'd had a chance, with confirmation from avi,
to present his side of it, I doubt he'd have been shut down at all,
circumventing much in the way of hostile feelings.
If it were my account, I'd be highly annoyed.. But, if someone
wasn't involved, yet took the same punishment as the main perpetrator, I
would feel badly for the (relative) innocent, who has had to suffer the
equivilent of what would have happened to my account, without reason.
Quibbling in coop is indeed where things like this belong.
Autoritarian measures, taken without counsel from the paying membership,
are not tolerable, especially when they are of this magnitude. I care
little if this is minor compared to the supposed reactions of AOL or
Prodigy.. I'm not there, am I? I'm here, because here is different than
there.. or it was..
|