response 26 of 103:

May 9 14:31 UTC 1995

  I agree TS, constructive criticism is most useful; I wouldn't post ideas
in a public conference if I didn't want it!
 
  Srw, different $HOME directories are very easy, but aren't you concerned
about the drawbacks in #20's last paragraph?  Opening new guest users up
to echo antics of prankster guest users could be a bad intro to Grex.  I'm
reserving judgement on which approach I prefer until I hear Greg's (or
someone else's) criticisms of the multiple account proposal.
 
  If problems occur with relatively unlimited guest access, I agree with
adding limitations...only time will tell.  Even if restricted from running
any regular programs, the guest account might be useful, providing intro
information (like a "guided tour" as mdw said), and showing some
explanatory screen clips of Picospan and party.

response 28 of 103:

May 10 20:24 UTC 1995

That would be nice.  The problem is that it's difficult to implement.

response 30 of 103:

May 11 14:31 UTC 1995

Also, originally guest accounts were suggested by someone who figured
that using a guest account to make an anonymous response would be easier
and more convenient than running newuser to create a one-use account.
So it sorta defeats the original suggester's idea to prevent guest accounts
from making responses.

response 32 of 103:

May 12 09:08 UTC 1995

In my opinion, it's not a question of "if" problems arise, but "when".
Even that is optimistic, I am convinced some of the problems I described
elsewhere will happen almost instantly.  Even if none of those problems
occurred, I still think the resulting change in the dynamic of how
people would find and use grex would be disadvantageous to building a
community of users.  Instead of inviting people into the living room and
giving them their own identity right off, we'd be, in essence,
constructing a glass wall behind which faceless newbies would constantly
shuffle by.

The dynamic is, of course, a matter of taste.  (But it is a matter that
the board should not be just deciding without consulting with the
users).  Technical solutions for the problems are in many cases just not
feasible.  For the problems that are solvable, I very much question the
amount of time & effort that would be required to solve them.

I think Greg is already doing a good job of illuminating some of the
issues involved there, so let me just step back a bit and ask: does it
really make sense to spend 300% more effort to implement this -- to make
it "easier" for people to learn to use grex, when we already (a) have
more people here than we can readily serve, and (b) might better spend
that effort on speeding up the system to serve more users?  I believe
there is a much simplier solution here, that will answer most of the
objections I have, present most of the information Rob wants to present,
in the way Rob wants to present it, that will take only 20% of the
effort and not require any special mods to mail, login, passwd, or
anything else.

response 34 of 103:

May 12 18:35 UTC 1995

mdw> In my opinion, it's not a question of "if" problems arise, but "when".
 
Definitely, though it's also a question of "how often/how severely" problems
arise with guests, as problems arise with or without guest accounts.
 
> ...the board should not be just deciding without consulting with the users.
 
Discussion's been open to everyone; want me to propose a membership vote?
 
> ...and not require any special mods to mail, login, passwd, or anything....
 
The proposal I made (see 2/1/95's /u/ajax/guest_acct_description) needs one
mod: make guest's password null and unchangeable.  Greg recently suggested
modifying mail, and if someone wants to do it, it sounds good.  I'd suggested
some changes to login, but those changes will now be implemented in scripts.
 
gregc> It will suck up a fair amount of technical resources, both to
gregc> initially implement it, and to keep it going.
 
You and Marcus refer to the staff setup time needed.  I think you're talking
about a different type of guest account than was proposed.  The only tech
resources I've requested of staff are to reset guest's shell, quasi-
permanently remove guest's password, and (when it's ready) mention it in the
login/help text.  Other help (like your feedback in this item!) is most
welcome, but not required.  Hackers using guest will take staff time, but I'm
not sure that's what you're referring to here.
 
gregc> I've been highlighting the technical problems inherent in what Rob is
gregc> proposing to make sure eveyone understand just how much work this
gregc> project would take.
 
The only tech probs you've brought up here relate to multiple guest accounts,
which you said were more than you'd care to list.  If it's as difficult as
suggested, I'll set up one acct with temp dirs as discussed, but either way,
I've offered to do the work, so the amount of it shouldn't affect staff.
 
As for limiting programs, that's always a possibility.  I'd still like to try
an open access system, but the board/members decide.  I thought the board
gave tentative approval, but I'll propose another board vote or a member vote
if anyone wants that.

response 36 of 103:

May 13 07:06 UTC 1995

I agree that the guest account should not be able to do mail, talk. party,
chat, write, shell. I think it would be valuable if it could do picospan,
but not make responses. I know what I am suggesting is hard, and I'd
rather see the staff upgrade the cpu.

OTOH, I think that there is a very legitimate need for a guest account.
This would provide people with an idea why they should create an account,
or why they shouldn't bother. It would also mesh better with people's
expectations on the net. I really appreciate what rob's doing.

response 38 of 103:

May 15 03:56 UTC 1995

might, perhaps, open up a real party permission sted "example," iff that
is easy to do.

response 40 of 103:

May 15 11:03 UTC 1995

He means that instead of showing an example bbs session, perhaps the
guest account should be allowed to join party.

response 42 of 103:

May 16 02:26 UTC 1995

There is definitely some confusion here about what we mean by "guest".

There are all the "unverified" "unpaid" accounts anyone can create by
running newuser.  Except for peacefrg, I don't think anyone else here is
seriously proposing any changes here.  Since peacefrg's suggestion seems
geared towards money raising, and not towards making the system easier
to use, I fear it best belongs elsewhere, if peacefrg is indeed serious
about it.

There is the kind of account Rob is suggesting, which would be, in
essence, a "passwordless" "anonymous" kind of account, but which would
have free reign of mail, party, bbs, etc.  It would also have a variety
of tutorial type help threaded through most of it.

I think gregc, srw, & I like the tutorial type information Rob
presented, but don't like the service implications of creating an
anonymous account.  What we've proposed is just putting that information
up, but without the general system access of a real user account.  That
gives most of the advantages of Rob's information, but without most of
the service access & the resulting problems that Greg and I have already
explored in different ways, in greater detail.

Perhaps an anology will help.  Right now, we might think of Grex as
being a residential house.  It has an ordinary front door to it, with a
lock, and a large painted sign that says "Welcome", with an arrow
pointing to a vending machine located nexted to the door.  If you press
a button on the vending machine, it takes a picture of you, and hands
you a name badge, which can be used to unlock the door and give you
admission.  If you do this, you can almost always squeeze through the
door and into the house, although the house is always popular and often
crowded.  If you can get into the house, you can get into the kitchen
and make yourself food - but you aren't allowed to use the phone and
call other houses unless your badge is stamped "verified".

If we look up and down the street, we can see some other popular
variations.  For instance, there are many houses that are set further
back from the street, with vicious "watch out for the dog" type signs,
which are owned by various businesses.  It doesn't cost anything to get
into those houses either, but you can only get a badge if you work for
the right company, and people who enter those houses are usually
expected to work on non-frivolous work type things, and not to have fun,
like here on grex.

There are some other houses which have vending machines, just like Grex,
but they're not free.  You gotta drop money into the machines before you
can get in the door.  Compuserve is perhaps the most interesting,
because they don't take your picture, and they have vending machines on
every street corner.  There are advantages to having money, that cannot
be denied.

There are some *other* houses that look a lot like grex.  They're called
freenets.  There are 2 differences.  One is that next to the vending
machine, they have a box of "guest" badges, so you can just walk up,
grab a guest badge, and get in, without waiting for your picture.  The
other difference is that the vending machine won't, in fact, hand you a
badge, instead, it gets send via camel caravan to your house, and
arrives a month after you apply - *IF* they don't think the house is too
crowded.  One other difference which isn't too obvious from the outside,
on a freenet, the inside of the house is *very* different from grex.
They don't let you in the kitchen at all, and they won't serve you food
if you have a guest badge.  On the other hand, most will let you use the
phone to call certain other houses, even if you're just a guest.

One other factor needs mentioning: there are some hooligans in the
neighborhood.  Some of them like to say they're improving the world by
discouraging the guard dogs in the corporate houses, although I'm not at
all sure I follow their logic.  A lot of them just like to wander from
house to house, rattle the door knobs, and if they can, they break in
and smash a few windows.  On grex, we've noticed these people, but we
seem to have invested in fairly good locks to the basement, so they
almost never get down there.  A few of them like to wander around and
say "look at me, I'm tough", but most of the regulars have learned to
recognize and ignore these people.

What Rob is proposing is that we also put a box of "guest" badges out on
the front porch, just like a freenet.  He agrees it's too hard to
remodel the house, so he's willing to settle for hanging one or two more
doors.  Everyone looks just the same without badges, so people on Grex
have long gotten used to telling people apart by badge.  So, in essence,
these people with guest badges will look just like people who are all
dressed in identical clown suites, complete with the "kick me" sign on
the back.

response 44 of 103:

May 16 09:53 UTC 1995

VCool.

response 46 of 103:

May 16 12:23 UTC 1995

        I second that. And not just for guest accounts.

response 48 of 103:

May 16 15:13 UTC 1995

  Marcus, indeed, I like your analogy...I was hoping for a final inspection
before doing the finishing sanding on a new entrance, but this is turning
into another building permit debate!  :-)  I thought the public hearing in
February did that, but if there are ambiguities about what was proposed, what
was approved, and what's being done, let's clear them up before proceeding.
 
  Seeing as there isn't much middle ground between an open guest account and
a more restricted guest account, I think we should make a decision and plod
ahead.  As I asked before: Does anyone want to put it to a membership vote?
Does anyone want a board vote on how open the guest account should be?  If
so, speak up!  If nobody does in a week or so, does it seem acceptable to
proceed with a relatively unrestricted guest account on a trial basis?