response 26 of 220:

Mar 18 23:46 UTC 1995

I believe the Sunday meeting is intended to be public, hence the "e-mail
me if you want to go and you need directions" in the item header.  But
sticking to the single topic sounds like a good idea.

response 28 of 220:

Mar 19 12:33 UTC 1995

I'm glad it's open to the public.  I'll try to be there.

response 30 of 220:

Mar 19 21:24 UTC 1995

03/19/20 -- responding to remmers (20)
 
John, thanks for your welcome.  I hope to get more HVCN
directors to participate in your discussions.  You will,
I am sure, find some of them quite interesting to meet.
 
* . . . a step . . . could lead further. . . .
 
Very important point.  When HVCN reorganized in the second
half of 1994 we changed from a tightly controlled
directorship corporation into a membership-based corporation.
We wanted to have our directors responsible to our members.
Membership is open to the community.  You have to pay $25 per
annum to vote, at present.  We knew there were dangers in
"going public" but we did not want to be subject to the
"take my ball and go home" risks of a small controlling
group.
 
The result is we determined to reach out to the community
and seek participation, help, advice, and money from a wide
range of sources.  After all, we want to be a community
network.
 
At the TIIAP meeting last week, Arbornet folks and HVCN
folks agreed that, despite what might happen on the grant,
cooperation and communication makes sense.  At least we
should be willing to talk and exhange information and ideas.
So, we agreed (and included Grex in our intent) to keep
talking no matter what happens on the grant.  I sincerely
hope you will join with us in those discussions.
 
* grex does not verify users . . . .
 
This is a sleeper issue that will be *very important* for us
all to work with.  I, and HVCN, do not care whether you
verify or not.  However, others with more power than us
might.  My understanding is that Merit is *soon* changing
its policies such that you will have to be a
"legitimized" user of some affliated organization to get
access to Merit.  I would think this is sometthing that
joint discussions and information sharing would be of
interest to us all.  I don't like it, but it is there.
We cannot afford to ignore it.
 
We (HVCN) are all dead set against censorship.  We realize
howver, that we must be creative if we are to protect first
amendment rights.  And we must be at least as determined
as those who would try to control thought.  This is an area
where the board of HVCN and the board of Grex have much in
common from what I gather in your discussions.  The fact
is the baddies are often better connected than we are, or
have more money, or are just plain more insistent.  We must,
in my opinion, share ideas ond effort in fighting this slop
of mind congtrol.
 
I also see things (police-type) happening to other systems
and users that we must be aware of and protect against.
I strongly suggest we establish a legal watch and an industry
watch to keep ourselves well informed of what is happening.
None of us has the whole story, we must piece it together
though joint effort.
 
* we should get together . . . .
 
Valerie can tell you about my suggestion for a pizza party.
 
I'll see you at your board meeting next week.  Hope a couple
more HVCN board members can attend with me.
 
Thanks for making this forum available.
 
Arnold

response 32 of 220:

Mar 20 01:48 UTC 1995

I neglected to mention in the minutes that a 5-1 vote means that the motion
carries. I will notify the tiiap mailing list recipients that
Cyberspace Communications will participate in WIN for the purpose of
the TIIAP grant application.

response 34 of 220:

Mar 21 05:12 UTC 1995

I attended this evening's TIIAP meeting.  (Or part of it, anyway --
I missed a chunk of the meeting rebooting Grex because of this
evening's vandal).  At the meeting, they looked at a draft of the
letter of intent, and made some revisions to it.  They discussed
which categories of the TIIAP structure to apply under.
The group is forming 3 committees: information, technical, and
administrative.  They particularly need people for the technical
committee.  There are only 4 weeks left until the grant proposal
is due, so we'll need to work fast.  The next meeting will be
Monday March 27 at the NEW Center.  Arnold Barr and Linda Vengroff
will be attending the later part of Grex's board meeting on Wednesday.

response 36 of 220:

Mar 21 14:36 UTC 1995

Ja, that's a truly great quote, and oh so true.

Craig Plesco, the President of Arbornet, and I have been concerned about
losing either of our systems' identity into the consortium.  We, and many
people from each system, have expressed these concerns to the TIIAP
application committee and the HVCN people.  These people are firmly committed
to making sure our various systems retain their individual identities.
This morning in e-mail, Arnold Barr suggested that the various groups
involved in this application draft a resolution saying that the groups
in the consortium agree to work together to defend the independence of
any individual group in the consortium against any threat to its
independence.  I'd definitely like to see such a resolution.

response 38 of 220:

Mar 21 20:49 UTC 1995

Re 35, 36, 37 --
I like the ". . . form ties of cooperation before defining the walls
of separation." comment by rcurl.  I know I speak for our entir
e board of directors when I say that we stand ready to enter
such a resolution on our books at any time, and we do not have
to do this now - we just wanted you and Arbornet to know our
willingness to state these principles in writing as well as
"talk" about them.

The vigilance charge to the WIN group suggested by tsty is a good
one.  Fortunately we have some people from all three organizations
that can help analyze every facet, from experienced grant writers,
to grant administrators, to technical experts, and more.  Everyone
has this concept - individual control - firmly in mind.

response 40 of 220:

Mar 21 21:24 UTC 1995

My question is, "What will Grex get out of this arrangement?"  Easier
access??  We're already swamped.

Note that I am not against the HVCN doing this.  In fact, I think this
would be a great thing for the HVCN.

response 42 of 220:

Mar 22 02:44 UTC 1995

Ah Ha! - Re: 39 - 41 - Swamps, tides, wind.  Estuarians!  
To danr - Grex can expect nothing except what it puts in.  Nothing in
nothing out - this is not a free lunch.  It is an opportunity - easily
defeated, destroyed, ignored, and lost.  With all due respect, and most
sincerly, I hope we can talk about some "Ask not ... " concepts. Rather
than "what's in it for me?"  OTHI.  NOT.  

response 44 of 220:

Mar 24 03:12 UTC 1995

adbarr here - for those not on tiiap@m-net.arbornet.org list - (talk
to jep@m-net.arbornet.org if you want on the list)

Text of Letter of Intent sent to feds - receipt has been acknowledged

 --
                        WASHTENAW INFORMATION NETWORKS
 
                                LETTER OF INTENT
 
March 21, 1995
 
Telecommunications and Information Infrastructure Assistance
Program
National Telecommunications and Information Administration
U. S. Department of Commerce
Room 6043
14th Street and Constitution Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20230
 
Washtenaw Information Networks intends to submit a grant
application to the Telecommunications and Information
Infrastructure Assistance Program of the National
Telecommunications and Information Administration.  Please
find below the requested information.
 
Organization:           Washtenaw Information Networks
                        105 Pearl Street
                        Ypsilanti, MI  48197-2611
 
Contact:                Linda Vengroff
                        Chair, WIN Grant Committee
                        313-487-1107
                        313-481-0050
                        Linda.Vengroff@emich.edu
 
Category:               Category Two - Access Projects
 
Application Domains:    Community Networking
                        Library Services
                        Public and Government Information
                        K-12 Education
 
Project Description:
 
Washtenaw Information Networks (WIN) a partnership of
public and private computer networks, requests funds for a
community network.  This community network will provide
citizens currently without access to computerized
communication the ability to access local information
sources and the internet.  WIN is an alliance of community
organizations and volunteers willing to contribute the time,
resources and personal expertise to develope and maintain a
community information system in Washtenaw County, Michigan.
Community members will be able to access local government
information, library catalogs, education and cultural
information, participate in conference forums of community
interest, and electronic mail.  A critical component of this
proposal is the development of kiosks in publicly accessible
areas to enable community*[end page one]*
 
*[begin page two]*
 
Letter of Intent                                   page two
Washtenaw Information Networks
 
 
 
members without access to computer terminals in the
workplace, home or school use of the system.
 
 
Sincerely
 
 
Linda Vengroff
Chair, WIN Grant Committee
 
*[End letter]*

Pardon me please - but I think I hear a tiny bit of history being
made - who?  Us?

response 46 of 220:

Mar 24 10:05 UTC 1995

I thank rcurl and adbarr for #37 and #38... and the WIN / HVCN / TIIAP
combine.

response 48 of 220:

Mar 30 02:20 UTC 1995

Not trying to change your vote.  It is very difficult to be more
spcific at this time about this project.  Let's consider two situations.
A. Grex/Arbornet both withdraw. HVCN builds a system. Grex and Arbornet
contribute nothing -  What would Grex or Arbornet expect to get
from HVCN? I believe this is a lose / lose deal. Or, at best you
might call it a staus quo deal.  

B. Grex withdraws. Arbornet stays in. (or the reverse).  HVCN builds
a system with remaining member.  What would withdrawing partner expect
to gain from its non contribution to the system built by the other
two members.  

Dan, I guess I do really understand ( or at least I think I can appreciate
reasonably well) the intense desire to be indpendent and free of arbitrary
or stupid rules, decrees, demands, and commands.  It is very doubtful anyone
on Grex can know the depth of my abhorence for arbitrary power.  
What I am having trouble understanding is our ability (collective our)
to fear each other based on ignorance of each others systems, rather
than holding rational fears based on behavior.  "Headline - HVCN just
annouced it has acquired the Tallahassee Free-Net"  "It has always
been our strategy to secure a southern anchor, Barr said"  "Industry
insiders speculated Barr has his eye on the REBOCs, nothing more,
nothing less"  "Barr refused comment."  "HVCN stock reached a new high
today."Ok, I can understand apprehension if clippings like this existed.

My proffer is that the evidence is to the contrary.  What I believe 
firmly (and I am not a programmer or a unix expert or a math major, 
or anything close) based on a fairly intense study of the 
telecommunications industry for the past 4 years, is that the
threat to 

Grex and Arbornet and HVCN will not be from each other - it will
be from much larger and better financed organizations.  Every 
organization must have a process of renewal by adding new and 
(usually) less skilled members, and the organization must
train the new members.  I am concerned that none of us will
survive in the long run if we become superflous.  The Cablecos, 
the Telcos, or event the electric company could do it.  Our
only real long range (next 30 years) hope is community support
from a wide base.  I do not see that yet for Grex or Arbornet, sorry
but I do not.  

I don't know how much more specific I can be.  Take a whack and 
help me understand what you mean.