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Grex > Coop7 > #125: Reconsidering putting new users in agora | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 76 responses total. |
rcurl
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response 25 of 76:
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Nov 14 18:06 UTC 1995 |
The fw can "roll" items, by killing early ones. I guess they are there
to be read, but the newuser won't know that (or care....).
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kerouac
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response 26 of 76:
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Nov 15 00:15 UTC 1995 |
It would be helpful in this intro conf if there was a set item
discussing the history of grex, its evolution and its relationship
history wise to other like boards (particularly m-net) Has
anyone around from a few years back written any kind of essay on
the subject. There's some excellent stuff in a couple of the older items
in the history conf.
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popcorn
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response 27 of 76:
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Nov 15 07:15 UTC 1995 |
Would it be OK to put this up for a member vote? It's rather a big
change to the system. I'd like to see as many people as possible have
input into the decisions that are involved.
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scg
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response 28 of 76:
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Nov 15 07:54 UTC 1995 |
I'm a little bothered by all the times recently when people have said that
something was too big an issue for the board to handle, and needed a member
vote. I was under the impression that the board exists so that things can
get done without having to go through the hassle of a member vote to change
things or get things done. I'm not saying there's anything inherently bad
about member votes, but I think it's a much better use of them for people to
let the board act first, and then if they feel strongly enough that the board
made the wrong decision, or that the board refused to act on something they
should have acted on, then it makes sense to propose a member vote.
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popcorn
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response 29 of 76:
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Nov 15 08:00 UTC 1995 |
For everyday things, yes, that makes sense. But, in my opinion, something
as drastic as changing the initial conference new people are dropped into
is big enough that it's worth asking for everybody's input and not just the
board's. To me, that's part of being member run and not board run.
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scg
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response 30 of 76:
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Nov 15 09:03 UTC 1995 |
But if the board does something the members really don't like, the members
can always overrule it. If the members can't trust the board to make
decisions, why bother having the board?
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robh
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response 31 of 76:
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Nov 15 10:54 UTC 1995 |
kerouac - Yes, I'd like to link over an item from the History conference
about the history of Grex, or maybe just started up a new
(permanently frozen) item containing that info. I'm sure
that's something a new user might have an interest in.
(As opposed to, say, "how to program emacs macros". >8)
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davel
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response 32 of 76:
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Nov 15 11:56 UTC 1995 |
Re 27-30: I'm with Valerie, I think. I don't know that it's a big deal, but
I'd say that this is a good issue for a membership proposal/vote. If a
real consensus becomes clear here & no vote is taken, the board's likely to
go ahead, though.
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rcurl
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response 33 of 76:
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Nov 15 15:33 UTC 1995 |
I think that before we "put this up for a member vote", we should
know what "this" is. That is, a specific proposal should be written
and posted here for discussion. So far, a rather waide variety of
t hings have been proposed, so I don't know what "this" is. It may
be, with a sensible proposal, everyone would pretty much agree that
the board could implement it in a few minutes, rather than spend
all the time/space required for a general vote of the members. Of course,
if any member posts a specific proposal, and requests a general vote
of the members, we have to do that - but maybe there is already a
consensus.
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popcorn
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response 34 of 76:
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Nov 15 15:36 UTC 1995 |
Ja, I meant "put this up for a vote once it is decided". I'm the first to
agree that it's not completely defined yet.
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janc
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response 35 of 76:
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Nov 15 23:19 UTC 1995 |
I think the last few Agora conferences have been the cat's pajamas. Really
good. Lots of fun. I'm really reluctant to mess with something that works
so well.
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adbarr
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response 36 of 76:
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Nov 16 00:38 UTC 1995 |
Fun? Easy for you to say! ;-)
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robh
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response 37 of 76:
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Nov 16 03:48 UTC 1995 |
I can't comment on what I think of the last few Agoras, since
I haven't read them. >8) But mlady/wisdom isn't the only
new user who's complained to me about how stupid the
conferences are. (Meaning how stupid Agora is, and they
don't know that there are any other conferences.)
Would it help if carson and I set up a prototype Intro
conference for folks to look at and comment on, or would
that be wasteful of system resources?
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remmers
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response 38 of 76:
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Nov 16 04:28 UTC 1995 |
It certainly wouldn't tax resources, since we've got plenty of
disk space, and the prototype intro conference wouldn't be large
anyway. (If it *was* large, then there's a problem with the
whole concept.) So I'd say go for it.
Like Jan, I enjoy Agora, and seemingly so do the multitudes
of other people who participate in it, so I'm wondering if this
discussion doesn't amount to trying to fix something that isn't
broken. I'm sure there are newusers for whom Agora works just
fine. I also believe you when you say you hear from plenty for
whom it doesn't. I don't know what the relative sizes of those
two groups are, but I'd suggest that you may be getting a biased
sample, since in your helper role you're more likely to hear from
people who have a problem with Agora than from those who don't.
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rcurl
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response 39 of 76:
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Nov 16 07:26 UTC 1995 |
I have agora "under control" too - lots of use of forget. I don't think
Jan, John, or I are good "tests" of whether agora is or is not the
right entry point for newusers. It certainly does not have the tutorial
content that is proposed for an intro cf. I say, go for it. If it
looks good, we can move newsuers to it on an experimental basis.
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scg
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response 40 of 76:
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Nov 16 08:00 UTC 1995 |
The issue of calling for a member vote on anything other than bylaw
ammendments and board elections unless the board has already either taken
action or decided not to take action really bothers me. Like it or not, the
board is there to make decisions, after trying to get a sense from the users
and members of what the users and members want. If a member vote has to be
taken and the membership decides something different from what the board has
decided (that includes deciding to do something when the board hasn't done
anything), that's a pretty good sign that the board isn't doing its job.
Member votes are a good safeguard to have in case they ever become needed,
but as a board we should try to do our job well enough that they aren't
needed.
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carson
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response 41 of 76:
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Nov 16 14:30 UTC 1995 |
What skeege said.
Anyway, I think that part of the idea behind an "intro" conference
would be to bring yet more conferencers up to speed. Granted that
some newusers do just fine in Agora, but counter that there's nothing
to stop them from leaving "intro" and swimming in Agora. Again, I
think that one of the goals of an "intro" conference should be to
get newer users _out_ of it, and _into_ other conferences, including
Agora.
Rob, I think you might want to lower your suggested number of items.
Wouldn't want an introduction to overwhelm. ;) I'd guess that 10
new response items seem less daunting to the beginner than 20. If
the platter doesn't satiate their appetite for conferencing, they should
be able to find the other conferences with little difficulty.
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popcorn
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response 42 of 76:
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Nov 16 16:22 UTC 1995 |
Re 40: Actually, the board was originally created out of a sense that the
members really should be deciding everything about the system, but some
day-to-day tasks were too mundane to bother all users with. The idea was
never that the board should be making far-reaching decisions for the users.
Um, why are we saying that newusers should be forced to swallow a bunch of
information about how to use the system, before letting them use it? It seems
to me that they've all just come off of newuser, which has already loaded them
up with a ton of information, and by the time they're in the conferences they
are ready for some content, not more instructions. More instructions could
scare people off.
Would it work to put somewhat better info in agora item 1 and in the agora
bulletin screen (go to agora and type "disp bull" to see it again), rather
than sticking newusers in a different conference? I think the drivel in the
first few agora items does scare new people off, but if we can get them to
the real content in agora, that's likely to be what hooks them on Grex.
At some point Jan suggested creating a command to show some selected *really
good* agora items to newusers, and adding a note that tells new users to run
this command. This strikes me as a much better way to get newbies into the
discussion, rather than bombarding them with even more instructions.
Robh -- I'd like to personally invite you back to Agora. It really is a neat
conference, with some *very* good discussions going on.
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davel
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response 43 of 76:
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Nov 16 16:42 UTC 1995 |
I'd like that better myself, Valerie.
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remmers
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response 44 of 76:
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Nov 16 17:30 UTC 1995 |
I was thinking of saying some of the stuff that Valerie said in
#42, but she said it first and said it well, so I'll just say
that I agree.
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rcurl
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response 45 of 76:
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Nov 16 18:09 UTC 1995 |
You wouldn't need most of the stuff in newuser if it was in an intro cf.
The advantage of the latter is that it would be interactive, and could
more easily be read again. The trouble with newuser is the trouble with
all "manuals" - lots of talk with nothing to do: it swims by and you are
lucky if you grasp 10% of it. It is *newuser* that forces the newuser to
"swallow a bunch of information...before letting them use it". Replace
most of *newuser* with an intro cf, and newusers would have a happier
introduction to conferencing.
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chelsea
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response 46 of 76:
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Nov 16 23:06 UTC 1995 |
I also agree with Valerie here.
If I joined a system for the first time and found myself in
a heavily moderated (in terms of content) conference where I
couldn't enter an item, well, I'd tend to get a first impression
that might be a whole lot worse than thinking the system is a
big free-for-all with a whole lot going on.
Nothing is broken here that will be fixed by a new, moderated
conference.
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janc
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response 47 of 76:
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Nov 17 00:26 UTC 1995 |
I think a "intro conference" is a poor way to to get help to newusers.
A conference is not an ideal help system.
What I'd like to see is a "?" command that works at every common prompt on
the system and gives thorough context-sensitive help by bringing you into
a good sound help system. So if I type "?" at respond or pass, it would
bring up a help menu where you can ask not only for lists of commands that
can be executed, but advice on how to skim through conferences and so forth.
There are big problems with coming up with a single help command that works
everywhere, but some form of that would be 100 times better than a conference.
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kerouac
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response 48 of 76:
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Nov 17 03:04 UTC 1995 |
What concerns me is that there seems to be a lot of policy, voted on
and not voted on, that is in effect but is not written in any file or
part of any law code. Apparently, it was voted in the last meeting, that
staff will reserve the id of any deceased user when specifically requested.
Fine. But where is this written. It seems that there a lot of unwritten
grex policies that staff follows and that it would be safer it staff
recorded all these and kept a file of them. Maybe it seems like a hassle
but there IS staff turnover, and new staff may NOT know many of these
policies that are taken into effect orally. It is never a bad thing
to write everything down!
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robh
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response 49 of 76:
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Nov 17 03:27 UTC 1995 |
Um, I believe our illustrious Secretary (srw) wrote the
proposal down. And we do keep the minutes of every
Board meeting on-line.
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