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25 new of 203 responses total.
morwen
response 25 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 17 14:06 UTC 2002

My word.
rcurl
response 26 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 17 15:25 UTC 2002

Immediately following the above quote, on the same web page, is another
that is identified as

 "SD# 369 - Georgetown University Professor, Halim Barakat: 'The Jews Have
 Lost Their Humanity'; 'They Do Not Raise Their Children to be Weak' 
 In an article published in the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat [1],
 titled "The Wild Beast that Zionism Created:  Self-Destruction,"
 Georgetown University professor of Palestinian origin, Halim Barakat,
 criticizes Jewish and Zionist approaches to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
 The following are excerpts from the article:? " 


lk
response 27 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 17 18:58 UTC 2002

I'm not sure what that has to do with anti-Semitism, but the full quote
(further down the same page) is that:

        The Zionists Do Not Raise Their Children to be Weak and Human

As if Israel should take lessons about humanity from suicide/homicide
bombers, created by the desire to destroy Israel (See Hamas and PLO
"Covenants") and daily societal incitement to do so -- from government
run media (see above) to textbooks (see www.edume.org ).

Unfortunately for Israel, and as morwen predicted, the Danes were not
intimidated into not traveling to Israel and have taken a 3-0 lead.
rcurl
response 28 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 18 00:24 UTC 2002

"Jews Have Lost Their Humanity" sounded somewhat anti-semitic.
scott
response 29 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 18 02:54 UTC 2002

Is there any particular justification to assuming that Israel is more
enlightened or peaceful than other countries?
happyboy
response 30 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 18 15:48 UTC 2002

no.
gull
response 31 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 18 19:21 UTC 2002

Re #29: If you don't assume Israel is more enlightened and peaceful than
all other countries, you're an anti-Semite.  Just ask Leeron.
scott
response 32 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 18 20:50 UTC 2002

Oddly enough, I don't think Leeron has ever accused me of anti-Semitism. 
He's called me a fool, a liar, a dupe, and plenty of other things, though.
lk
response 33 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 18 22:30 UTC 2002

Actually, David, I've never said anything to that effect.
mvpel
response 34 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 19 01:10 UTC 2002

Re: 20 - does anyone else see anything in #16 that has anything to do with
hating or disparaging Arabs as a whole, or even with Arabs in general? 
Apparently Aaron did, but I just can't pick it out of #16.
oval
response 35 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 19 01:30 UTC 2002

it does infer that the 'conflict in the middle east' is all about jew-hating.
that any arab that has a problem with the occupation and abuse of palestine
is lumped into the category of 'jew-hater'. i'd bet nearly 100% of arabs
aren't quite happy with israel, so yes, id see you calling pretty much all
arabs jew-haters.

happyboy
response 36 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 19 01:31 UTC 2002

(hi 5!)
mvpel
response 37 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 19 01:41 UTC 2002

There are people who have a problem with the Israeli relationship with and
handling of the people of the West Bank who don't beat and murder random Jews
walking down the streets of Paris as a result.  There are even Palistinians
who deplore the murder of innocent Israeli children. (But they usually have
to keep quiet or they run the risk of being hung by their toes in a town
square after being shot and dragged through the streets.)

The connection between "Arab" and "Jew Hater" is not my concoction.
I was talking about "Jew-haters," Aaron's the one talking about "Arabs."
lk
response 38 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 19 02:31 UTC 2002

20:57   Hundreds of Jews demonstrate in Brussels after Jewish bookstore set
        afire last night.
aaron
response 39 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 19 21:31 UTC 2002

Mike, I don't think anybody has missed your overt bigotry and hatred, 
as consistently expressed toward Arabs. If you thought you were 
still "in the closet", sorry. You outed yourself a long time ago.

oval, perhaps the problem is what they call "reaction formation". Some 
of those making such knee-jerk accusations may perceive that Arabs are 
driven by hate for the Jews because their personal views are built on 
the foundaiton of their own hatred for the Palestinians and Arabs -  
but which they may not be able to recognize in themselves. Or perhaps 
the problem is that too many people were raised by parents who hate 
Palestinians, and they are unable to detach themselves from the bigotry 
in which they were immersed from the earliest days of their lives.

Are there additional explanations for how somebody like Leeron can be 
so consumed by hatred, and so contemptuous of Palestinian lives, 
health, safety, and basic human rights? If so, I would like to hear 
them.
lk
response 40 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 20 05:02 UTC 2002

It's curious, to say the least, that in an item about anti-Semitism,
with news of horrible events in Europe and incitement in the official
Arab media, that instead of addressing the topic all Aaron can do is
voice his own petty hatred.

So back to the subject at hand. The following article is long, but a
must read for left-wing-wannabee Grexers (do I sound like bdh? (: )
What is written isn't surprising, it's the identity of the author.

Oriana Fallaci is a long-time political revolutionary (and also the
Italian Barbara Walters).

Originally published in Corriere della Sera.
Translation by Chris and Paola Newman 

On Jew-hatred in Europe
By Oriana Fallaci   April 17, 2002

I find it shameful that in Italy there should be a procession of individuals
dressed as suicide bombers who spew vile abuse at Israel, hold up photographs
of Israeli leaders on whose foreheads they have drawn the swasitka, incite
people to hate the Jews. And who, in order to see Jews once again in the
extermination camps, in the gas chambers, in the ovens of Dachau and
Mauthausen and Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen et cetera, would sell their own
mother to a harem.

I find it shameful that the Catholic Church should permit a bishop, one with
lodgings in the Vatican no less, a saintly man who was found in Jerusalem with
an arsenal of arms and explosives hidden in the secret compartments of his
sacred Mercedes, to participate in that procession and plant himself in front
of a microphone to thank in the name of God the suicide bombers who massacre
the Jews in pizzerias and supermarkets. To call them martyrs who go to their
deaths as to a party.

I find it shameful that in France, the France of Liberty-Equality-Fraternity,
they burn synagogues, terrorize Jews, profane their cemeteries. I find it
shameful that the youth of Holland and Germany and Denmark flaunt the kaffiah
just as Mussolinis avant garde used to flaunt the club and the fascist badge.
I find it shameful that in nearly all the universities of Europe Palestinian
students sponsor and nurture anti-semitism. That in Sweden they asked that
the Nobel Peace Prize given to Shimon Peres in 1994 be taken back and
conferred on the dove with the olive branch in his mouth, that is on Arafat.
I find it shameful that the distinguished members of the Committee, a
Committee that (it would appear) rewards political color rather than merit,
should take this request into consideration and even respond to it. In hell
the Nobel Prize honors he who does not receive it.

I find it shameful (were back in Italy) that state-run television stations
contribute to the resurgent antisemitism, crying only over Palestinian deaths
while playing down Israeli deaths, glossing over them in unwilling tones. I
find it shameful that in their debates they host with much deference the
scoundrels with turban or kaffiah who yesterday sang hymns to the slaughter
at New York and today sing hymns to the slaughters at Jerusalem, at Haifa,
at Netanya, at Tel Aviv. I find it shameful that the press does the same, that
it is indignant because Israeli tanks surround the Church of the Nativity in
Bethlehem, that it is not indignant because inside that same church two
hundred Palestinian terrorists well armed with machine guns and munitions and
explosives (among them are various leaders of Hamas and Al-Aqsa) are not
unwelcome guests of the monks (who then accept bottles of mineral water and
jars of honey from the soldiers of those tanks). I find it shameful that, in
giving the number of Israelis killed since the beginning of the Second
Intifada (four hundred twelve), a noted daily newspaper found it appropriate
to underline in capital letters that more people are killed in their traffic
accidents. (Six hundred a year).

I find it shameful that the Roman Observer, the newspaper of the Pope--a Pope
who not long ago left in the Wailing Wall a letter of apology for the
Jews--accuses of extermination a people who were exterminated in the millions
by Christians. By Europeans. I find it shameful that this newspaper denies
to the survivors of that people (survivors who still have numbers tattooed
on their arms) the right to react, to defend themselves, to not be
exterminated again. I find it shameful that in the name of Jesus Christ (a
Jew without whom they would all be unemployed), the priests of our parishes
or Social Centers or whatever they are flirt with the assassins of those in
Jerusalem who cannot go to eat a pizza or buy some eggs without being blown
up. I find it shameful that they are on the side of the very ones who
inaugurated terrorism, killing us on airplanes, in airports, at the Olympics,
and who today entertain themselves by killing western journalists. By shooting
them, abducting them, cutting their throats, decapitating them. (Theres
someone in Italy who, since the appearance of Anger and Pride, would like to
do the same to me. Citing verses of the Koran he exorts his brothers in the
mosques and the Islamic Community to chastise me in the name of Allah. To kill
me. Or rather to die with me. Since hes someone who speaks English well, Ill
respond to him in English: Fuck you.)

I find it shameful that almost all of the left, the left that twenty years
ago permitted one of its union processionals to deposit a coffin (as a mafioso
warning) in front of the synagogue of Rome, forgets the contribution made by
the Jews to the fight against fascism. Made by Carlo and Nello Rossini, for
example, by Leone Ginzburg, by Umberto Terracini, by Leo Valiani, by Emilio
Sereni, by women like my friend Anna Maria Enriques Agnoletti who was shot
at Florence on June 12, 1944, by seventy-five of the three-hundred-thirty-five
people killed at the Fosse Ardeatine, by the infinite others killed under
torture or in combat or before firing squads. (The companions, the teachers,
of my infancy and my youth.) I find it shameful that in part through the fault
of the left--or rather, primarily through the fault of the left (think of the
left that inaugurates its congresses applauding the representative of the PLO,
leader in Italy of the Palestinians who want the destruction of Israel)--Jews
in Italian cities are once again afraid. And in French cities and Dutch cities
and Danish cities and German cities, it is the same. I find it shameful that
Jews tremble at the passage of the scoundrels dressed like suicide bombers
just as they trembled during Krystallnacht, the night in which Hitler gave
free rein to the Hunt of the Jews. I find it shameful that in obedience to
the stupid, vile, dishonest, and for them extremely advantageous fashion of
Political Correctness the usual opportunists--or better the usual
parasites--exploit the word Peace. That in the name of the word Peace, by now
more debauched than the words Love and Humanity, they absolve one side alone
of its hate and bestiality. That in the name of a pacifism (read conformism)
delegated to the singing crickets and buffoons who used to lick Pol Pots feet
they incite people who are confused or ingenuous or intimidated. Trick them,
corrupt them, carry them back a half century to the time of the yellow star
on the coat. These charlatans who care about the Palestinans as much as I care
about the charlatans. That is not at all.

I find it shameful that many Italians and many Europeans have chosen as their
standard-bearer the gentleman (or so it is polite to say) Arafat. This
nonentity who thanks to the money of the Saudi Royal Family plays the
Mussolini ad perpetuum and in his megalomania believes he will pass into
History as the George Washington of Palestine. This ungrammatical wretch who
when I interviewed him was unable even to put together a complete sentence,
to make articulate conversation. So that to put it all together, write it,
publish it, cost me a tremendous effort and I concluded that compared to him
even Ghaddafi sounds like Leonardo da Vinci. This false warrior who always
goes around in uniform like Pinochet, never putting on civilian garb, and yet
despite this has never participated in a battle. War is something he sends,
has always sent, others to do for him. That is, the poor souls who believe
in him. This pompous incompetent who playing the part of Head of State caused
the failure of the Camp David negotiations, Clintons mediation.
No-no-I-want-Jerusalem-all-to-myself. This eternal liar who has a flash of
sincerity only when (in private) he denies Israels right to exist, and who
as I say in my book contradicts himself every five minutes. He always plays
the double-cross, lies even if you ask him what time it is, so that you can
never trust him. Never! With him you will always wind up systematically
betrayed. This eternal terrorist who knows only how to be a terrorist (while
keeping himself safe) and who during the Seventies, that is when I interviewed
him, even trained the terrorists of Baader-Meinhof. With them, children ten
years of age. Poor children. (Now he trains them to become suicide bombers.
A hundred baby suicide bombers are in the works: a hundred!). This weathercock
who keeps his wife at Paris, served and revered like a queen, and keeps his
people down in the shit. He takes them out of the shit only to send them to
die, to kill and to die, like the eighteen year old girls who in order to earn
equality with men have to strap on explosives and disintegrate with their
victims. And yet many Italians love him, yes. Just like they loved Mussolini.
And many other Europeans do the same.

I find it shameful and see in all this the rise of a new fascism, a new
nazism. A fascism, a nazism, that much more grim and revolting because it is
conducted and nourished by those who hypocritically pose as do-gooders,
progressives, communists, pacifists, Catholics or rather Christians, and who
have the gall to label a warmonger anyone like me who screams the truth.

I see it, yes, and I say the following. I have never been tender with the
tragic and Shakespearean figure Sharon. (I know youve come to add another
scalp to your necklace, he murmured almost with sadness when I went to
interview him in 1982.) I have often had disagreements with the Israelis, ugly
ones, and in the past I have defended the Palestinians a great deal. Maybe
more than they deserved. But I stand with Israel, I stand with the Jews. I
stand just as I stood as a young girl during the time when I fought with them,
and when the Anna Marias were shot. I defend their right to exist, to defend
themselves, to not let themselves be exterminated a second time. And disgusted
by the antisemitism of many Italians, of many Europeans, I am ashamed of this
shame that dishonors my Country and Europe. At best, it is not a community
of States, but a pit of Pontius Pilates. And even if all the inhabitants of
this planet were to think otherwise, I would continue to think so.
russ
response 41 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 20 14:10 UTC 2002

Good for Fallaci.  It's about time someone said what she said.

I keep wondering what would happen if one of the demonstrations
full of fake suicide bombers was infiltrated by a real suicide
bomber.  Would the left be able to face the reality that Israel
lives with every day?  Thank goodness it's not going to happen,
but you have to wonder if it would make a dent in their ideology.
If *anything* could.
oval
response 42 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 20 23:41 UTC 2002

if hold up a picture of sharon with a swastica on his forehead, does that mean
i hate all jews? or does it mean that i think sharon is a racist murdering
nazi..

gull
response 43 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 21 02:31 UTC 2002

Re #42: I don't think you can dislike any jewish person without someone 
calling you an anti-semite.
aaron
response 44 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 21 15:13 UTC 2002

Leeron, observing that you and Mike are hate-filled bigots is not an
expression of "hatred" - it is an observation of fact.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_685000/685792.stm
slynne
response 45 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 21 18:35 UTC 2002

Maybe this conversation would go further if we could all agree that:

1)The Jewish people in #44 are not representative of all Jewish people.

2)The Palestinian suicide bombers are not representative of all 
Palestinian people

3)The Europeans who are harassing Jewish people in their countries are 
not representavie of all European people

4)Americans who dress up in white sheets and burn crosses on people's 
yards are not representative of all Americans. 

Ok, with that said, I am not sure that I have seen any evidence that 
France is doing nothing about the incidents in their country. I would 
think that the French would want to find out who is doing these things 
and I would be surprised if they really are doing nothing (like 
southern police forces in the US when black people were being harassed 
in the past). I am not terribly familiar with specific incidences in 
other countries. My impression is that these are isolated incidences. 

re Oriana Fallaci' s article. I think it is fair for her to be critical 
of groups that dress up as suicide bombers and glorify that kind of 
violence and of anyone who would burn synagogues and vandalize 
cemetaries. But I think she is being overly critical of many others 
such as the priests in Bethlehem and seems to suggest that anyone who 
thinks that Israel is being overly harsh with the Palestinians is a Jew 
hater. I totally disagree. Israel has a right to exist and a right to 
defend themselves but they have been doing much more than that for a 
long time. Still, I will grant that she may have more of a handle than 
I do on anti-semetic sentiments in Europe. I have not met many 
Europeans who hate Jewish people but I dont know a whole lot of 
Europeans. Perhaps it is a bigger problem that I have realized. And 
Fallaci is correct that bigotry and hatred are shameful. 

klg
response 46 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 21 18:59 UTC 2002

re:  "#44  Leeron, observing that you and Mike are hate-filled bigots is not
an
 expression of "hatred" - it is an observation of fact."
Hey Ronnie, You left me off the hate filled bigot list.  What's wrong?  Don't
you love me no more?
lk
response 47 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 21 19:58 UTC 2002

The absurd is that Aaron thinks that by pointing to a handful of Jews
in a BBC article he has somehow proven that all the pro-Israel voices
on Grex "hate" all Arabs. Despite the volumes that I have written,
Aaron cannot point out a single "hateful" statement to support his
own vendetta, his hateful smear campaign.

Ironically, I'm not even convinced that Goldstein hated Arabs. As a
physician, he treated Arab patients. Perhaps he snapped that day, but
clearly he did something horrible in murdering Arabs in Hebron.

Lynne, the problem I have with your comment is that it's a whitewashing
and false moral equivalency. The BBC article Aaron muckracked was 2 years
old. According to the nuts own claim, only 10,000 people had visited
Goldstein's grave in 6 years. Even if the number isn't inflated it is fairly
small. In contrast, peace rallies in Tel Aviv drew hundreds of thousands of
people -- in one day.

In contrast, 65-85% of Palestinian Arabs support suicide bombings targeting
innocent Israeli civilians. PA officials incite hatred and violence on a
daily basis. Muslim clerics call for the murder of Jews, and they mean it
literally. PA media broadcasts the same incitement, including "public
service" commercials calling for children to join their peers in paradise,
those children who have already become martyrs. (Those who speak against
such misuse of children are threatened with the death of "collaborators").

If these don't speak for the Palestinian Arabs, who does?

17:38   Unidentified assailant hurls stone through window of Ukraine
        synagogue; second such attack in a week 
morwen
response 48 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 21 20:26 UTC 2002

I don't hate anybody.  What does that make me?
lk
response 49 of 203: Mark Unseen   Apr 21 20:36 UTC 2002

A liar.
(:
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