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Grex > Agora41 > #83: Does St. John's Wort lift Spirits? | |
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| 25 new of 125 responses total. |
brighn
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response 25 of 125:
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Apr 14 05:12 UTC 2002 |
So will listening to Rane.
BTW, I wonder if anyone here is a licensed psychotherapist. There seem to be
quite a few people giving medical advice which amounts to treating depression,
a medical disorder, as a mere side effect of being lazy. How, precisely, is
that different from telling a depressed person to "cheer up"?
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oval
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response 26 of 125:
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Apr 14 05:16 UTC 2002 |
i imagine everyone's depression is a different experience, and that everyone
experiences it on some level at points in their life. i do think people should
take more responsibility for their mental state, and figure out what makes
them feel crappy and what makes them feel better
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rcurl
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response 27 of 125:
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Apr 14 05:30 UTC 2002 |
"Cheer up, they said, 'things could be worse',
and so I cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse."
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morwen
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response 28 of 125:
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Apr 14 07:42 UTC 2002 |
So far, the thing that has cheered me up the most often when I was
depressed was to choose to distract myself from it or if something
made me laugh.
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jep
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response 29 of 125:
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Apr 14 10:22 UTC 2002 |
re #25: People who are posting that they are depressed are asking for
help. Those who tell about using exercise, St. John's Wort, etc. to
help get past their depression are trying to help.
Not all depression is a medical disorder. Sometimes people just have
the blues. People who are severely depressed, or who have been
depressed for a long time, should seek medical help and/or therapy and
can get a lot of benefit by doing so.
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brighn
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response 30 of 125:
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Apr 14 16:02 UTC 2002 |
All depression is a medical disorder. Sometimes, that medical disorder can
be helped through change in diet and exercise; indeed, that's frequently part
of a professional treatment program for mild depression. If it *weren't* a
medical disorder -- i.e., if it weren't caused in part by physiological
imbalances -- then changes in diet and exercise (i.e., changes in
physiological balances) would not be an effective treatment.
If the tone were, "Changing your diet and exercise would be a good first
step," I'd not have said anything. The tone of several posts, I felt, was,
"Changing your diet and exercise will typically cure depression." Which is
tantamount in my mind to blaming the depressed person entirely.
OTOH, I understand Oval's implication that far too often people with
depression and similar problems like to blame their illness to get out of
things or to excuse their behavior. I don't agree with that, and am actually
rather aghast that, "I'm crazy, I can't help my behavior" is a valid excuse
*not* to get punished for crimes committed.
Maybe the tone I read wasn't intended; I'd be surprised to hear it coming from
Remmers, for instance. Rane's flippancy probably made me sensitive to the
topic in general, If so, my apologies to people for misconstruing their words.
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remmers
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response 31 of 125:
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Apr 14 16:31 UTC 2002 |
I think it's understood that the suggestions from non-professionals
are anecdotal and/or based on personal experience. My comment on
diet and exercise was meant in the sense of "it helped me".
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mary
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response 32 of 125:
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Apr 14 16:47 UTC 2002 |
Another help is if the depressed person wants to be healthy.
Sounds odd, but not all do. They've become comfortable with
being sick and found depression useful.
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aruba
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response 33 of 125:
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Apr 14 23:27 UTC 2002 |
Re #32: The situation there is that depression is like a "local minimum" -
you have to make things harder for a while to get out of it, but once you
do, it gets better. But when you're in a deep depression, sometimes it's
hard to muster the energy to get out, and hard to believe that there *is*
a way out, especially since everyone needs to find their own way.
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ric
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response 34 of 125:
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Apr 15 01:41 UTC 2002 |
Zoloft most certainly does not generally produce weight gain, and i'd like
to see you show me some evidence to prove that.
Anti-depressants are notoriously hard to prove efficacious.. you need several
thousand patients to really have a valid study because so many patients on
the sugar pill BELIEVE (psychologically) that they're on the anti-depressant,
which makes them feel better.
The Duke study probably didn't have nearly as many patients as the actual
clinical trials for Zoloft did.
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mary
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response 35 of 125:
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Apr 15 02:43 UTC 2002 |
No, Mark, I'm not talking about lack of energy being the reason folks
don't get better but rather that for some being sick meets their needs on
some level. Maybe other folks don't expect as much from them, or they
don't expect as much from themselves, or they enjoy the sympathy, or they
are afraid of being part of life, or whatever. It's a complex issue when
we start to be our own worst enemy.
Certainly this doesn't apply to all or even most depressed people. But it
does play a part. So an honest, I mean really honest self-assessment is a
good place to start. If you don't have the energy to even look inside
then, well, you're screwed.
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happyboy
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response 36 of 125:
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Apr 15 02:50 UTC 2002 |
*shrug* part of the illness may be a distorted view of reality
in which case a self assessment is moot.
*shrug*
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mary
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response 37 of 125:
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Apr 15 03:02 UTC 2002 |
Distorted but useful, to some. That's my point.
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md
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response 38 of 125:
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Apr 15 12:02 UTC 2002 |
We have a friend who swears a bout of depression was cured by one ride
on that really nasty roller coaster down at Kings Island. She did seem
quite giddy after we all got off the ride (we had to pry her husband's
hands off the safety bar), but I think that was just relief over not
being dead.
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edina
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response 39 of 125:
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Apr 15 12:46 UTC 2002 |
ROTFLMAO!!!!
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brighn
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response 40 of 125:
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Apr 15 13:40 UTC 2002 |
#35> Depression (and other mental problems) can also lead to
self-codependency, which might be part of what you're saying. I know that,
during the worst of my Internet addiction, I identified so completely as an
fragile, histrionic Net addict that I didn't know what I'd be if I stopped
being that. For most people, a negative identity is better than no identity
at all, I think. "Getting better" involves establishing a new, more positive
identity (among other things).
I still don't have a completely positive self-image, but at least I don'thave
a completely negative one.
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aruba
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response 41 of 125:
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Apr 15 14:54 UTC 2002 |
Re #35: I know exactly what you're talking about, Mary - I lived it for
many years. My reference to energy was meant to be more abstract than how
it read. I've been studying physics for the last couple of years, and at
some point I thought up this analogy.
Physicists talk about "potential energy" being energy that is somehow
stored inside an object or a system. For instance, when I pick a ball up
off the floor and raise it to six feet in the air, I have added potential
energy to the ball. All I have to do is let it go and the potential
energy will turn into kinetic energy. An analogous thing is true when you
compress a spring, or bring two like charges close to each other.
Physical objects tend to seek the lowest energy state they can find. For
instance, if you put a marble at the edge of a bowl and release it, it
will roll around for a while, but eventually settle into a spot at the
bottom of the bowl, where it has the least potential energy. Likewise if
you compress or elongate a spring and then release it, it will oscillate
for a while and then go back to its equilibrium point, where it has
minimum potential energy.
Now imagine that your marble is not on the edge of a bowl, but somewhere
in some cratered landscape like the surface of the moon, with deep
craters, shallow ones, and some mountains. Also imagine that there is an
atmosphere of little particles whizzing around everywhere, and that some
of them occasionally hit the marble and transfer their energy to it.
Now occasionally the marble will fall into a small crater where it is
somewhat protected from the wind. It would really *like* to be in one of
the deep craters, but it is stuck in the little one.
Then whether it gets out or not depends on being hit by the little
molecules in the atmosphere. And that depends on how fast the little
molecules are going, which is measured by the ambient temperature.
Now imagine that the marble is your mood, or the general character of your
life, and that what you (partially) control is the temperature. You would
like to get yourself to an absolute minimum - to "live up to your
potential" and be the best you can be. But you get stuck in a crater
called "depression". You really don't like being there, but you don't
have a sure-fire way of getting out; the best you can do is to turn up the
heat and hope you get blown out. But that's a frightening prospect,
because you really don't know where the wind will blow you. You know the
depression crater very well, so while you don't like it, it at least
protects you from some things. It also takes a great deal of work and
dedication to get yourself blown out of the crater, and you really don't
know whether it's courageous or foolish to try.
That's what it was like for me. I didn't *want* to be depressed, and a
lot of my needs certainly weren't being met. But it did protect me.
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jep
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response 42 of 125:
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Apr 15 15:03 UTC 2002 |
Mark, you have this way of putting the most negative of statements in
the most positive and unassuming of ways. I admire that. I have just
*got* to learn to do that.
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morwen
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response 43 of 125:
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Apr 15 16:15 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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morwen
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response 44 of 125:
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Apr 15 16:17 UTC 2002 |
The problem with advising good diet and exercise to a clinically
depressed person is that, when you're depressed, it's *hard* to
exercise and have good eating habits. When *I* feel depressed, I
don't *want* to exercise and I either don't want to eat anything or I
only want sweets, which are comforting in their poisonous little way.
It is easy enough to say, "You should get some exercise," or, "Eat
something healthy," but, if you are speaking to a clinically depressed
person, very often that person will think you just don't understand or
else will say they don't feel like it (which is true, they don't).
Paul is right, in most cases of clinical depression, a more medical or
theraputic approach is generally necessary.
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happyboy
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response 45 of 125:
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Apr 15 16:52 UTC 2002 |
re37: without a responsible third party present, how is a distorted
(delusional) self-image useful...aside from the genetic pruning that
occurs when said person decides that they CAN FLY?
re44: ok...i advise you to pig out on twinkies and lay around on your
ass all day instead. better?
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slynne
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response 46 of 125:
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Apr 15 17:57 UTC 2002 |
Believe it or not but happyboy has a lot of experience with depression
as do I. Sometimes one has to do more than just advise good diet and
exercise it is true but that doesnt mean that there is problem with
that advice. Sometimes what a depressed person needs is for someone
else to come along and give them some TLC (perhaps by cooking them a
healthy meal) and then give them a kick in the pants and make them go
for a walk around the block no matter how much they whine about it.
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edina
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response 47 of 125:
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Apr 15 19:36 UTC 2002 |
I'd trust slynne and happyboy's opinions over many others when it came to
mental illness. And slynne is right. Sometimes, you just need to get up and
move - and trust me, I know this from experience.
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brighn
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response 48 of 125:
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Apr 15 20:00 UTC 2002 |
No, it's not my imagination after all. John's presenting his information as
anecdotal, but Brooke is presenting herself, and by extension Lynne and
"Happyboy", as experts.
If Happyboy were a professional therapist and spoke to his clients in the tone
that he's used in this item, a third would sue him and a third would kill
themselves. Brooke, you'd just convinced me that my assessment of Jamie was
wrong, and now you've got me wondering if maybe it was my assessment of YOU
that was wrong.
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brighn
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response 49 of 125:
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Apr 15 20:07 UTC 2002 |
#45, re 37> Let's say Steve is depressed, he thinks he's horribly ugly and
fat. Let's say Mary's needs are to nurture, to "heal" people. Mary pays
attention to Steve because she doesn't think he's unattractive at all. Steve
finds Mary absolutely gorgeous. In reality, it may be the case that *if Steve
had an accurate self-image* Mary wouldn't give him the time of day because,
while she doesn't find him hideous, he's still not up to her "normal"
standards. The ONLY reason Mary is attracted to Steve is because Steve
fulfills her need to helf someone's self-image. Once he's healed, she's out
the door and on to her next patient.
Given what Steve stands to lose by aligning his own self-image with reality,
what impetus does he have to actually improve it? His fractured self-image
is VERY useful to him.
I've seen that scenario multiple times, and is by my understanding one
manifestation of "codependency."
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