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| 25 new of 52 responses total. |
jp2
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response 25 of 52:
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Jun 10 18:00 UTC 2002 |
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twinkie
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response 26 of 52:
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Jun 10 18:03 UTC 2002 |
Well...that, and that no other major religions went around the globe to
recruit people, nor did they tell others "You're condemned to eternal
damnation if you don't say you believe what we believe."
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brighn
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response 27 of 52:
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Jun 10 18:21 UTC 2002 |
#25> the Christians organized because there were so many different sects with
so many different opinions. John may have been written a century or so after
Jesus, but it wasn't selected as standard liturgy until quite some time after
that.
#26> Exactly. All the Imperial Romans asked was that you accept Caesar as a
God. Just about anything else was ok with them. Part of what pissed them off
about the Christians was that they (the Christians) wouldn't accept Caesar
as a God. Of course, most people making claims as in #25 do forget the part
about Christianity also being the first major religion to actively
proselytize...
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jp2
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response 28 of 52:
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Jun 10 18:36 UTC 2002 |
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vmskid
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response 29 of 52:
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Jun 10 18:53 UTC 2002 |
What did Jesus's wife have to say about all of this?
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flem
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response 30 of 52:
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Jun 10 18:56 UTC 2002 |
For some reason I find #28 fairly ironic. Dunno why.
The prevailing opinion in the three or four pages I skimmed just now seems
to be that John's gospel was written in the AD 80-90 period, and may well have
been written by the apostle, but neither of these things is at all certain.
I found
http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/jnotl.htm
to be pretty good.
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flem
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response 31 of 52:
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Jun 10 19:09 UTC 2002 |
I spoke too soon; the paper I linked to argues for a composition date around
AD 65. Interesting.
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jp2
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response 32 of 52:
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Jun 10 19:11 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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bhelliom
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response 33 of 52:
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Jun 10 19:20 UTC 2002 |
Thanks for the URL, Greg. I'll have to look at it when I get home and
try to get my computer to cooperate.
Re# 23. It has nothing to do with political savvy. Until 1516, there
wasn't a major schism within the christian church if I remember
correctly, and copyright wasn't in use that far back. It wasn't an
argument, you know. Just pure farce.
Also, another of the reasons for Christianity's success is the number
of concepts that were copted from local religious traditions.
Incidentally a number of old gods were demoted to "saints," most likely
for that very reason.
Really, JP2? John 3:16 was Jesus' own words? What proof do you have
to substantiate that claim?
I don't have to echo Brighn's statements about equality. He said it
very well.
Brighn, submit an expence report to God, and you'll be compentsated.
Perhaps it will be a point-based system? I wonder how much to qualify
for the Stereo? Do you have to be certified to do this? Anyone can
yell "Jesus Christ," but only the best of the best get noticed for it.
Maybe you can get a SAG card out of it if you're on TV at the time. :)
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brighn
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response 34 of 52:
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Jun 10 19:23 UTC 2002 |
Another source says: "The majority of modern scholars do indeed date the
Gospel in the 90s, but a growing number put it earlier, and Robinson mentions
seventeen, including P. Gardner-Smith, R. M. Grant and Leon Morris, who favor
a date before 70."
http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Homiletic/May97/gospels.html
Considering it's not even certain that Jesus himself was a real historical
figure (speaking of bursting bubbles), and considering that "Christ's own
words" differ between the Gospels. Consider the versions of his last moments:
Matthew 27
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli,
lama sabach'thani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Ps. 22.1
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man
calleth for Eli'jah.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a sponge, and filled it with
vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. Ps. 69.21
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Eli'jah will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
(Mark 15: 34-37 is roughly the same)
Luke 23:
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy
hands I commend my spirit: Ps. 31.5 and having said thus, he gave up the
ghost.
John 19:
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished:
and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Recap:
Matthwe and Mark say his last words were "My God, why have you forsaken me?"
Luke says his last words were "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit."
John says his last words were "It is finished."
NOW, I don't know about YOU, but if this were MY Lord and Savior, the most
important entity in my life, so important that I'd be willing to die to defend
him, I'd make pretty damn sure that I knew what his last words were.
If they can't even quote him correctly on that, what hope is there that
they've quoted him correctly anywhere else?
(Verses from the KJV, courtesy of bartleby.com)
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brighn
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response 35 of 52:
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Jun 10 19:26 UTC 2002 |
(Incidentally, note that I didn't say that John *was* written a century later,
I said it *may have been* written a century later. There is also some
controversy over whether the writer of the Gospel of John was the Disciple
John, and [as I mentioned] whether any of these people really existed, or were
metaphors or fabrications of later Christians. None of this matters, anyway,
since this all started as a silly joke, but don't argue church history with
a Preacher's kid, John. We know ALL the tricks.)
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jp2
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response 36 of 52:
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Jun 10 19:27 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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jp2
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response 37 of 52:
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Jun 10 19:29 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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brighn
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response 38 of 52:
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Jun 10 19:38 UTC 2002 |
#37> Yes, because #36 implies that the Gospel of John is the Word of Jesus,
and the other three are full of misquotes because THEY don't have the same
last words of Jesus.
I didn't realize that John had reached such a state that his words were the
infallible word of God. I thought only Jesus and God had that esteem.
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jmsaul
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response 39 of 52:
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Jun 10 19:44 UTC 2002 |
Re #33: Right. The Statute of Anne wasn't until 1557.
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jp2
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response 40 of 52:
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Jun 10 19:45 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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brighn
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response 41 of 52:
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Jun 10 20:54 UTC 2002 |
Thucydides? Where did THAT come from?
I have no desire to crush religion. As it turns out, I have no desire to crush
Christianity.
You still haven't addressed the fact that the four Gospels differ on the last
words of Jesus (as well as on many other details). There *is* a sane response,
but I'm not about to hand it to you. If we're going to debate, at least put
some effort into it...
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jazz
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response 42 of 52:
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Jun 10 21:02 UTC 2002 |
None of the gospels were directly written by apostles.
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flem
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response 43 of 52:
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Jun 10 21:30 UTC 2002 |
Now, jazz, you've not been paying attention. At least one of the papers
already referenced argues strongly that the gospel of John was indeed written
by the apostle John. Another that I read later argues just as strongly that
it wasn't, but I think it's incautious, at least, to assert #42.
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jp2
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response 44 of 52:
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Jun 10 21:39 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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brighn
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response 45 of 52:
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Jun 10 22:03 UTC 2002 |
#44 implies that the version of John we have today IS in fact first hand. That
point is hardly non-controversial.
And #44 is a crappy defense. You've just thrown out everything in the other
three Gospels. C'mon, if you try, I'm sure you can come up with a MUCH better
reconciliation of the four Gospels. Go for it.
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jazz
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response 46 of 52:
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Jun 10 23:39 UTC 2002 |
No, I have been paying attention.
Moreover, none of the gospels was written by any of Jesus'
contemporaries. At least none of the canonical gospels; there is an argument
over several of the non-canonocal gospels.
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brighn
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response 47 of 52:
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Jun 11 00:12 UTC 2002 |
Thomas is the oldest known Gospel, if one accepts its authenticity. It was
probably written by a contemporary.
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gelinas
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response 48 of 52:
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Jun 11 04:14 UTC 2002 |
(There have been several schisms in Christianity; just about every council,
including Nicea, resulted in one.)
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vmskid
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response 49 of 52:
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Jun 11 12:37 UTC 2002 |
Several??? Christiasnity is nothing but schisms. (Same as every other
religion).
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