response 26 of 68:

Jun 17 13:58 UTC 2002

Re #18: I'm not sure people dying while on organ waiting lists is
particularly noteworthy.  It happens in the U.S., too.  There just aren't
enough usable organs available, and there isn't really anything the
government can do about it.  (At least, not yet.  I suppose stem cell
research might have some promise, but the fundamentalists here in the U.S.
are well on their way to making sure we'll never find out.)

response 28 of 68:

Jun 18 00:14 UTC 2002

re:  (gull)  "(I suppose stem cell  research might have some promise, but the
fundamentalists here in the U.S.  are well on their way to making sure we'll
never find out.)"

Where do you get your information about this??  It's not what I read.

response 30 of 68:

Jun 18 10:50 UTC 2002

*sigh* W is dead wrong on stem cell research.  Wouldn't it be lovely 
if the GOP took Orrin Hatch's statement more to heart, but heh, right.

response 32 of 68:

Jun 18 14:42 UTC 2002

*chuckle*  He's not all that on the far right as you'd think; he's 
probably closer to being moderate.  Not all GOPs are conservative-- 
some are moderate, and a few are even liberal, believe it or not.

The core ideology of Republicanism today is conservative, hence the 
bias.  In very recent years, it's grown even more conservative.

I will admit that the Democrats have recently shifted a bit more to 
the center with fiscal conservatism (hence the term "New Democrat"), 
most notably with Bill Clinton.  I remember reading an article that 
seemed to suggest Gore and Bradley were trying to pull the party back 
to the left (this was during the party nomination).

In Washington State, political commentators have noticed that moderate 
is no longer a 4-letter word among activists.  Most Democrats here are 
New Democrats, although Republican skepticism is high.  The center is 
no longer to be avoided; many WA politicans are warning repercussions 
otherwise (Sam Reed, for example).

I don't have precise cites right now, but most folks here will note 
that Washington has managed to hang on to its blanket primary for 
right now, and it's one of the few states that has managed to do so; 
the concept has largely been banished effectively by the parties 
elsewhere.

response 34 of 68:

Jun 18 15:10 UTC 2002

It's rather courageous, given the climate of the Republican party these 
days.  I can still remember the awful convention when Pat Robertson took 
center stage.  Boy, that was awful.

response 36 of 68:

Jun 18 22:18 UTC 2002

Re #18:
Give me a break!
quote: 'They put women in absolute low positions' I can recall Mr. 
Fortuyn saying 'get cooking' to a female journalists when she pursuied 
him. He wanted to play dire 'in your face' politician making remarks to 
set people into reaction. When people used the same mechanics to 
confront him he, without exception, reacted angry.
All of which you remark can be heard coming from any bar stool.

You may mourn him, but he by no means can be compared with somebody 
like Martin Luther King who fought for a better world. Fortuyn fought 
for the priciple of all for one's own and if you cannot keep up, though.
I hope you are well insured, for if you - heaven forbid - ever develop 
cancer, you are on your own.
It's pretty easy to get rid of waiting lists when you make health 
insurance unaffordable to the masses, for that's what's going to 
happen: many, many people ininsured, making no appeal to health care 
whatsoever. In the worst case just lie down and perish.
I will not, and never, stand for such a society and I will fervently 
fight the ideas of Fortuyn. 
I believe in a society that takes care of its people.
I believe in the priciple of solidarity.

I won't call him a racist, for I don't believe he was a racist, but he 
certainly drew racists. Re-check the footage right after his killing at 
the Hague parliament. Those guys were neos for sure.

quote 2: 'this is WHY he called the islamic culture a 'backward' one'
Examples of backward cultures:
Fundamentalist christians? everone not belonging to their flock is 
unsalvished (to say the least)
Amish? no technologies
Hindus? (they believe in 50,000 deities)

I can go on for hours.

Besides, Islam is no culture, it's a religion.
And it sis not backward.
Without Arabic culture western society wouldn't know math, astronomy, 
our current numbers etc.

OK; getting back to the imams mentioned: there are always rotten aplles 
to be found in any basket. They are only a few. OK, get rid of them. 
Anyone proclaiming violence/hatred should be persecuted. Like mr. 
Spong, the barrister as he proclaims (files law suits) hatred against 
almost everybody not belonging to the Fortuyn flock. He's pathetic.

response 38 of 68:

Jun 19 01:00 UTC 2002

The problem is that fetal stem cells can do things other stem cells can't.

response 40 of 68:

Jun 19 02:23 UTC 2002

do some research.

response 42 of 68:

Jun 19 04:48 UTC 2002

Re #36:  Sorry, clees, but "Arabic" numbers actually originated in
India; they just travelled to European culture via Arabian routes.
Kind of like Greek literature and philosophy.

Re #37:  The fundamentalists believe (this is religion, not logic or
reason) that any cell with any potential to become a human being *is*
one.  A cell that you cannot make out without magnification is the
moral equivalent of you, in their eyes.  Thus, taking the products of
that cell and using them to make new tissues or organs instead of a
baby is "murder", yet the normal 50-75% failure rate of such cells to
survive to term somehow isn't "negligent manslaughter".  (This is one
of the logical stretches required to justify opposition to contraception
and make "right-to-life" anything close to internally consistent.)

My opinion of the people who want to take this piece of narrow-minded
flat-earther-equivalent dogma and make it public policy backed up by
all the muscle of law enforcement is unprintable.

I'm happy that the cloning-ban bill is probably dead for this session
of Congress (may Brownback suffer for introducing it), and the advances
such as cloned cow-kidney tissue being transplanted back to the nucleus
donor and even functioning as a kidney are likely to make such a bill
impossible to pass ever again.  The number of kidney patients waiting
for transplant kidneys, plus their families and friends, is bound to
focus such attention on the absurdity of the "zygote worship" dogma
that it will wither and die in the glare of reason:  these fanatics want
real people to die instead of receiving the therapies that stem-cell
technologies can provide, as the public will soon conclude.  Maybe the
whole "pro-life" movement will suffer with it, as Arafat suffered for
his support of Saddam.  I can hope.

response 44 of 68:

Jun 19 12:39 UTC 2002

From what I've heard, too, the "cloning" involved in making fetal stem cells
doesn't even involve conception in the normal sense that Christians usually
use the term -- it involves an egg cell and a skin cell, there's no sperm
involved, and there's no chance of producing an actual human being.

response 46 of 68:

Jun 19 20:24 UTC 2002

 I wonder if Mary has ever favored forcing medical treatment for the 
 children of parents who are Seventh Day Adventists or Christian Scientists
 or whether she really believes in the everyone-is-free-to-choose hands-off
 stance expressed in #43..

response 48 of 68:

Jun 19 22:08 UTC 2002

Yep.

I even see (the minor issue) as a variation on a theme.  No one has a
right to limit another's access to life-saving medical care because of the
gatekeeper's religious beliefs. 

The gatekeeper can be a parent, or legislators, or a doctor.  Doesn't
matter.  Only the person at risk can refuse treatment.  In the case of an
adult this is either an informed consent or an advance directive.  In the
case of a minor the court steps in as advocate and makes sure the child
doesn't die because of the parent's beliefs.  I don't have a problem with
this.