response 26 of 129:

May 3 20:07 UTC 2002

Scott, perhaps you should reread #24 and see if you can respond to
something that I did say.

I didn't assume "Arabs are automatically liars". But those who claimed there
was a massacre -- which they saw with their own eyes, and who then faulted
Israel for destruction that was self-imposed may, isn't it legitimate to
assume that their latest story isn't true, either?

Some of these same people have asked western reporters to take pictures of
them posing as dead in their own homes. And I've heard of video, taken by a
surveilance drone, showing some "victims" coming back to life as soon as the
reporters leave).

To the contrary, it appears that some people here (like elsewhere) are always
quick to assume that the Jews are lying. When Israel said there was no
massacre, they scoffed and grasped for any circumstancial evidence
they could find. When Israel said the buildings were booby-trapped these
people said "suuure".

If YOU were one of these people, why do you think that is?

response 28 of 129:

May 4 01:12 UTC 2002

(from an email I received)

-----

Subject: FW: True story from Jenin

THIS IS AN EMAIL ACCOUNT FROM A FRIEND'S COUSIN IN ISRAEL.

Date: Tue, Apr 30, 2002, 10:42 AM

I'm writing this email after having returned last night from the emergency
army call up that sweetly interrupted my life 3 weeks ago. I'm writing this
email for simple reasons, to tell you the truth about what happened in Jenin
over the last 2-3 weeks and to share some of the stories and incidents that
we had.

It's pretty sad seeing and hearing the lies that CNN, BBC and all the others
have been feeding the world when you have seen a completely different picture
yourself. Feel free to pass this email around and send me any feedback or
questions.

Let me just get one thing cleared, there was no massacre in Jenin, I repeat
no massacre in Jenin!!! (I'll get back to this later)

My reserve battalion was stationed on the northern and eastern border of Jenin
with the purpose of ensuring the enclosure of the area during the Defensive
Shield Operation took place. We were divided amongst a number of roadblocks
and defensive positions with the main purpose of preventing terrorists leaving
Jenin to carry out attacks inside Israel and also from escaping during the
operation. We were also responsible for monitoring the entrance of the Press
and humanitarian aid going into Jenin, and also Palestinians needing to leave
Jenin for humanitarian reasons. I myself together with eleven other soldiers
manned a small roadblock at the northern tip of Jenin, which was one of the
main thoroughfares for traffic entering and exiting the area.

Jenin is not a big town. The refugee camp is a small part of Jenin and the
pictures repeatedly shown on TV are of a small section (10% -15%) of the
refugee camp that was destroyed. The refugee camp is where the terrorists have
mainly operated and harboured factories and storage facilities for weapons,
explosive belts etc. Many of the recent suicide bombers have strapped
themselves up in this refugee camp. What is also very fascinating is that
UNWRA (United Nations Work and Relief Agency - part of the UN) has been
responsible for the refugee camps over the last 50 years and has allowed
terrorist infrastructure to flourish under its nose.

In the fighting that took place in the refugee camp, children were used as
human shields by the terrorists. One of the brigade commanders told us this
last Saturday night that they were shot at in the small alleys of the camp.
They returned fire only to hear the cries of young children to which they
immediately stopped shooting and prayed that they had not killed any children.
They hadn't. The armies respect and consideration for the life's of innocent
civilians is of a high standard. For this reason, 23 of our own boys were
killed in the Jenin fighting. If we had no regard for the life's of innocent
civilians, 23 sons, husbands and fathers would be at home with their families
now. They were the price we paid for the high moral and ethical standards
upheld during the fighting.

During the week of the incursion into Jenin the area was a closed military
zone. However contrary to what was reported, humanitarian aid was allowed in
and I myself personally checked many of the hundreds of trucks that were
allowed in to deliver supplies to the Palestinians. This was carefully
coordinated with the army to ensure that innocent civilians would receive the
supplies and to minimise the risks of those entering the areas.

For a few days after the fighting had stopped, the area was closed off to the
press. This is when the rumours of the massacre began despite the army press
giving detailed briefing sessions to the media on the situation. So why was
the area closed to the press and what did we seemingly have something to hide?
Simply, the refugee camp had been booby trapped by the terrorists and
minefields awaited those that entered. Soldiers inside the refugee camp told
me of not being able to move 5 meters at a time without having to diffuse
another pipe bomb or mine. Many of the houses destroyed were done so by bombs
planted by the very residents of the camp. Some of the dead bodies were also
booby trapped with grenades and mines awaiting

the Israeli soldiers. (The Palestinian death toll stands at below 40 with
maybe another 20 or so buried in the rubble of which most has been cleared
up. This was also told to us by embarrassed reporters who entered the area
eagerly awaiting to report an Israeli massacre of Palestinians only to be
disappointed to find minimal destruction.)

The media. Last Sunday while myself and my good friend Ben were on duty at
>the roadblock at the time when no press were allowed to enter Jenin, we
spotted a jeep trying to evade the roadblock through an adjacent field. We
managed to stop the jeep and discovered a group of French Journalists who had
managed to enter Jenin and were now trying to leave. We followed the normal
procedure of questioning them, checking their vehicle and identification. This
process sometimes takes a while because we have to phone another army base
who then checks the identities with the Israeli authorities which includes
the intelligence operations. Anyway, it turned out that one of the supposed
French journalists is actually a Palestinian terrorist on Israel's wanted
list. He was taken away by the police together with the other real French
journalists. Bet you never heard about that one on TV.

Last Thursday, friends of mine on duty at another outpost a few kilometres
away from me spotted two young kids walking in the middle of the day with
black backpacks on their backs. The two kids entered an abandoned structure
about 800 meters away from the outpost and left without the bags. The kids
thought they had gone unnoticed. It was later discovered that the bags
contained weapons, explosives, an Israeli army uniform with a red paratrooper
beret. The plan was for a terrorist to pick up the loot at night, dress up
as an Israeli soldier and attack the outpost. We had already received
intelligence reports 5 days earlier warning of a terrorist dressing up as a
soldier and entering one of the outposts.

Avi, a good friend of mine studying together with me at Bar Ilan was stationed
in Nablus (Shchem) during this operation and told me the following: They took
over a house in Nablus as a stronghold in order for the operation to clear
out the terrorist infrastructure there. While in the house, they did not use
the electricity to charge their cell phones. They did not touch or eat any
food left in the house. They made a concerted effort not to use any furniture
in the house. When they left the house a few days ago during the pullout of
Nablus, they cleaned the house and left money on the table. I have heard this
reported from soldiers that were also in Beit Lechem, Tulkarm, Kalkilya and
Jenin.

On Monday morning this week, a UN bus entered Jenin carrying a UN rescue team
from Britain. The team included doctors and other rescue personnel who get
dispatched around the world to help with rescue operations. Four hours later
the bus returned through our roadblock and they stopped and we had a chance
to chat a little. The first thing they said is that this was the biggest waste
of time for them and they would be catching the next flight out of Israel.
One of the doctors told us that one of the "massacred" bodies he examined was
that of a man that had been dead for two years. What a shame that the
Palestinians dug him up to add to the death toll.

As my friends and I packed up yesterday ready to head for home we joked at
how the whole world considers us to be monsters and how one day we might all
be charged for war crimes. We felt good for having served our country once
again and we hope that something was achieved in this operation. What lies
ahead is still uncertain. What became so clear to me is the importance of
seeing things in the right context and perspective. If all that happened these
last 3 weeks was an Israeli incursion into the Palestinian areas, then yes,
maybe we don't look so good in the worlds eyes. But looking in the context
of the history of Israel and our longing to live peacefully side by side with
our Arab neighbours, we cannot let terror to exist and destroy our dream. I
pray and hope that new Palestinian leadership emerges that will want to make
this world a better place for its people.

Saul Kramer

response 30 of 129:

May 5 17:15 UTC 2002

Aaron, why do you think the Swiss put a cross on their flag?  Because it was
a cool shape that looks good in white on red, or because it has religious
significance?

response 32 of 129:

May 5 19:15 UTC 2002

(new theory:  klg is a pseudo of happyboy)

response 34 of 129:

May 5 20:52 UTC 2002

Alas, most of Aaron's response has the credibility of saying that it is
not a Cross on the Swiss flag. I suppose it didn't cross his mind that
the Star of David (which, unlike the menorah, is a national and not a
religious symbol) could similarly be derived from the Israeli flag.

I wasn't talking about Qana, but just because there were UN people at
the scene -- who were not members of the commission of inquiry -- how
would that justify the commission publishing conclusions before it
even arrived at the scene to begin its investigation? (But no, I wasn't
talking about Qana. Odd, however, that there are so many such examples.)

Aaron, do you know anyone who has argued that the UN Commission was
qualified to investigate Jenin? Why is it that so many people considered
it a kangaroo court? (And yes, your insistence that it's not a Cross on
the Swiss flag, and presumably that the red crescent is also not a
religious symbol, is par for the kangaroo course.)

Shouldn't the UN investigate if Arafat is "unwilling" or "unable" to
stop the terrorism -- or, as the evidence is mounting, that he is behind
the terrorism of the past 19 months? That he is the "supreme leader" of
Fatah's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade?

response 36 of 129:

May 6 00:16 UTC 2002

Weasel out of this one, aaron:

http://www.eda.admin.ch/washington_emb/e/home/geninf/flag.html

"
Among the flags of contemporary European countries, that of Switzerland is
one of the most ancient and one of the most modern.  It has a white cross in
a red field; the cross is the same length on all sides and each arm is
one-sixth longer than its width.  The flag looks back upon 700 years of
history.  To trace its origin, one must go right back to the very beginning
of the Confederation.  Already in the early Middle Ages, the cross was, more
or less, commonly used on coins and seals and, as a symbol of the Christian
faith . . .
" . . . The use of the red cross on a white background, which is actually the
Swiss flag reversed, was granted to the International Red Cross to commemorate
the organization founded by Henri Dunant, citizen of Geneva."

response 38 of 129:

May 6 01:16 UTC 2002

"members of"  "principal members"  

Neither of those statements says that there are only 3 members, nor does it
say anything about additional technicians, experts, etc.

response 40 of 129:

May 6 04:39 UTC 2002

PrinciPAL member of the team.  I hate that.

response 42 of 129:

May 6 13:42 UTC 2002

The Swiss may be known for being neutral, but they've also been known for
centuries for providing mercenaries for other people's wars.  Of course,
that's all over now except for one particular unit, which doesn't have
anything to do with religion at all, right?

The fact is that the Swiss have a cross on their flag because it's a Christian
symbol, and countries with a crescent on their flags usually have it because
it's a Moslem symbol, so it's dumb to claim that the Star of David can't be
accepted by the Red Cross because it's a Jewish symbol.  Aaron isn't arguing
with that basic point; he just thinks the Israelis are equally dumb for not
coming up with some other symbol for their Red Cross equivalent.

response 44 of 129:

May 6 14:24 UTC 2002

You know what the "one particular unit" is, right?  ;-)

response 46 of 129:

May 6 14:59 UTC 2002

Aaron's argument that Israel should change the name and symbol of its
established medical unit is outright silly. Why should Israel accept
and bow to such overt anti-Semitism coming from the "neutral" Swiss / ICRC?

Is the man who was behind this fiasco, and who compared the Star of
David (a symbol of the Jewish people) to a swastika (the symbol of the
nazi party used today by various hate groups) fit to serve as one of 3
commissioners to investigate Israel?

That another one of the commissioners has a similar background, and that
Annan refused to add a military man to the team, seems to indicate that the
commission was stacked such that it would arrive at a foregone conclusion.

response 48 of 129:

May 7 18:54 UTC 2002

So typically Aaron beats around the bush, but the facts remain:

1. The Star of David is a national symbol, not a religious one.

2. The Swiss flag depicts a cross for religious reasons.

3. The flag is a red herring; Israel's flag also depicts a Star of David.
   So if the Swiss flag justifies the use of a religious symbol, why
   wouldn't the Israeli's flag use of a national symbol?

4. Why is Israel being "petulant" in not appeasing anti-Semites? Should it?

5. The retired American general was appointed as a member of the "team",
   NOT a member of the Commission. (A huge difference.)

6. One of the Commission members has compared the Star of David (the national
   symbol of the Jewish people) to the swastika (the symbol of the nazi party
   used today by neo-nazi groups).

7. Does such stacking of a Commission appeal to anyone's sense of justice?

8. Why shouldn't the UN investigate if Arafat is behind the terrorism?