response 25 of 95:

Apr 22 20:01 UTC 2002

Actually, I usually refer to their music as "sounding a bit like U2, but
without the talent."

response 27 of 95:

Apr 23 03:10 UTC 2002

(1) AFOS sounds nothing like U2.
(2) I've never been terribly impressed with U2's talent since they decided
they had some and got pretentious. I still think War is one of their best
albums. Most everything after and including "Pride (in the name of love)" has
sounded oh-so-artiste-tic.

response 29 of 95:

Apr 23 07:22 UTC 2002

  Why don't you carry the U2 discussion over into the music conference,
  where I'm sure you'll find several people (at least) willing to offer
  opinions..

response 31 of 95:

Apr 23 14:10 UTC 2002

Re #27: I definately agree with you about U2.  They got too polished and
pop-y and full of themselves, IMHO.

response 33 of 95:

Apr 23 16:35 UTC 2002

#28> U2 was a protest rock group from the early 80s. That was their style.
Then they got rich, and screw everyone else. Bono still remembers those days,
because he does still care about war issues, but he's chosen to stop singing
about it.
 
Then again, it's a hard line. Tracey Chapman got rich and still sung about
being poor, and got blasted by the one review I read of her latest for it.
If you get famous and still pretend to sing for the common man, you get
accused of being fake. If you get famous and stop singing for the common man,
you get accused of being pretentious. =} Ah, entertainer catch-22s.
 
None of which addresses the real issue, which is whether AFOS sucks. AFOS was
the ultimate New Wave group, so if you think AFOS sucks, you probably think
New Wave sucks, just like if you think Abba sucks, you probably think disco
sucks (unless you're a disco purist and think Abba sucks because they
overcommercialized it... just like a New Wave purist might insist the "real
New Wave" is Roxy Music and Ultravox).
 
Compared to Roxy Music and Ultravox, AFOS definitely lacked talent, but they
were great entertainers, the N*Sync of their time.

N*Sync, in contrast, sucks.

response 35 of 95:

Apr 23 18:33 UTC 2002

I thought The Human League was the ultimate New Wave band.

response 37 of 95:

Apr 24 01:02 UTC 2002

You know, you're arguing about the difference between music that sucks 
and music that *really* sucks.

The nominative plural of "grex" is "greges," pronounced GREG-ess.  A 
single member of a herd would be something like "caput gregalis" (KAH-
put greg-AH-liss) or "homo gregalis."  To a Roman, though, that 
would've implied "one of the herd" -- i.e., a commoner.  A more neutral 
Latin word for grexers would be "gregales" (greg-AH-less) which is 
from "grex" and means "colleagues" or "associates."  It's a plural noun 
that has no singular form, as far as I know, but if you say "gregalis" 
for a single Grexer I won't tell on you.

response 39 of 95:

Apr 24 16:51 UTC 2002

Just my old Cassell's Latin-English/English-Latin, plus Catullus, 
Tibullus, Horace and the Goliards.  I wish I had a grammar book, 
though.  I don't know for sure if it's "caput gregalis" or "caput 
gregale."  ("Homo gregalis" is right, though.)  No matter.

response 41 of 95:

Apr 24 17:10 UTC 2002

#36> Not a lot. Human League is one, but other examples don't flood my head.
there were a LOT of one-hit wonders... that seemed to characterize the genre.
 
Duran Duran and depeche Mode were also New Wave, but they managed to leave
their sound behind and survive on new styles. And that's pretty much what I
mean by "ultimate".... someone can say, "I like depeche Mode" and still have
a distaste for New Wave, because of other genres that got mixed in.
 
AFOS did New Wave. Period. With all the trappings, including ones that Human
League didn't use as well (drum machines, future-sci-fi synths, annoyingly
vapid lyrics, no real musicality... Human League were passingly creative
people who just didn't know how to play instruments, that's different than
people who know how to use all the new gizmos but don't really know how to
write a song).
 
AFOS did release a poppy post-Wave album, by that was just frontman Mike Score
and a whole new band. I saw AFOS recently, and it showed me how bad the songs
really were, because they were trying to play them on real instruments.
 
Don't get me wrong... AFOS was one of my favorite New Wave bands. But they
need to be considered as a New Wave band, and New Wave was the disco of my
generation. ;}

response 43 of 95:

Apr 24 21:21 UTC 2002

I guess that depends on who's doing the considering, although CDNow agrees
with you. I've always felt that "New Wave" implies that the band is from
England, in the same way that the best grunge bands came from Seattle.
 
But, again, this is a purist vs. populist argument. The Cars weren't very good
representatives of the populist New Wave sound; they're much better
representatives of the late 70s purist sound (as in Roxy Music).

response 45 of 95:

Apr 25 08:42 UTC 2002

late 70s purist sound?  Explain.

I think many folks would think Gary Neuman had better songwriting 
talent and music skills than Mike Score.  *shrug*

slightly before my time.  When MTV finally came to cable in my 
household, we were in the big hair band era.

response 47 of 95:

Apr 25 14:48 UTC 2002

It's not too hard to imagine, David. MTV has five or six channels that show
nothing but music videos now.
 
#45> My experience has been that musical genres go through at least four
stages. The first one is where the music is only accessible to a strong but
somewhat small fan base. The second one is where the music is considered
alternative, but has started including some aspects of other genres. The third
is where the music is popularized, and styles start to disintegrate because
the innovators have been replaced by people trying to get fast money. The
fourth is where the genre is established because the fad passes on, and either
it remains as its own genre or it fades away.
 
Purists tend to think of genres in terms of the first two stages, populists
in terms of the middle two stages.
 
Gary Numan was definitely "first stage" New Wave. He had a single hit --
"Cars" -- and his overall sound seems to have had a greater impact on techno
and on goth than on New Wave. (And "Cars" is also one of the weird songs that
can't be covered -- I have a few albums of Gary Numan tributes, and everytime
"Cars" is covered, Numan does guest vocals.) Marilyn Manson had a minor hit
off of a Gary Numan song ("Down in the Park," IIRC, in his pre-Trent days).
Numan didn't set out to be an innovator, ironically -- he unabashedly admits
he was trying to be "stage three" punker, and his first album is a weird
pastiche of punk, New Wave, and techno (the last genre not even existing at
the time). Numan spend most of his career resisting his innovative urges and
trying to be a pop superstar, and he never quite made it in the States,
although I understand he has quite a following in England. (He's still active,
too...)
 
Roxy Music and Ultravox were more "second stage" New Wave: Definitely
radio-ready, but still kinda weird for the mainstay stations. Definitely
artistic (especially Roxy Music).
 
All the bashing of AFOS aside, remember that New Wave also brought us Haircut
100 (la la love plus one), Kajagoogoo (too shy-ee-shy, hush hush ay-you-ay),
Berlin (sex, i'm a little girl, and we make love together), and 'til Tuesday
(hush hush keep it down down voices carry). Not a stellar bunch (although
Aimee Mann of 'til Tuesday disappeared for a while and reappeared as a
critical honey years later), although there were some artistic standouts
(Danny Elfman of Oingo Boingo has become the Mancini of our generation... how
many really memorable themes are his? I still remember the Batman soundtrack
dispute, because the Purple One [the artist formerly known as famous] made
a stink about being the sole voice on the ST, even though Elfman had done the
bulk of the music... they ultimately just released two ST albums. And of
course, "The Simpsons" theme is one of the most recognizable melodies of
late-20th-C pop culture... all that, and his neice-in-law Jenna is REALLY cute
;} ).

response 49 of 95:

Apr 25 20:17 UTC 2002

  Roxy Music started recording in 1971 or thereabouts, long before "New Wave"
  came about..