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| Author |
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| 25 new of 98 responses total. |
eskarina
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response 25 of 98:
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Apr 20 15:53 UTC 2002 |
one thing I've discovered about advisors: they're finiky. I'm not always
sure what makes the difference, but they will tell you totally different
things in different time periods.
Last year I went to see my advisor to plan this year's schedule. At the time
I was in Analysis I, found it interesting, and wanted to take Analysis II.
My advisor told me that class was too difficult for stupid little me who got
a 2.5 in Abstract Algebra, and that I should take something else. So I signed
up for the easier schedule he recommended.
This year I went back in, and told him that I wanted to take the graduate
level combinatorics course next year. He told me he thought it was a great
idea.
I'm still confused.
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jmsaul
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response 26 of 98:
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Apr 20 16:13 UTC 2002 |
You're getting a lot of good advice. I think that talking to a faculty member
who's an ally should be your next step.
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aruba
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response 27 of 98:
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Apr 20 19:01 UTC 2002 |
Thanks all. I have indeed been talking with the secretaries, and one of
them did tell me not to worry about any graduate-school wide regulations,
because all it takes is a signature and they are waived.
Thanks Sarah, for the offer of an "in" at NASA. I may call you on that.
Colleen - that makes a lot of sense, to get an advisor on my side. THat is
the next step anyway. I know who I want to ask, and I will do so next week.
We'll see what he says.
I'll also see if I can ask one of the secretaries about how to handle the
situation. Scott's idea that I might learn something useful is a good one.
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senna
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response 28 of 98:
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Apr 20 20:08 UTC 2002 |
Sign in an employee-only area of the outpatient physical therapy unit at St.
Joe's: "Do you want the man in charge? Or the woman who knows what's going
on?"
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danr
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response 29 of 98:
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Apr 21 00:48 UTC 2002 |
Another suggestion might be to get one of those "how to work for a
jerk" books. The situation is not completely analogous, but it might
contain some advice on how to deal with jerks who have some authority
over you.
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other
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response 30 of 98:
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Apr 21 02:21 UTC 2002 |
When I read response #29, I thought this was the item in which Anne was
talking about her boss, and I thought, "Not completely analogous? What do
you mean?"
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janc
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response 31 of 98:
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Apr 21 02:53 UTC 2002 |
Well, I breezed right through my PhD, and crashed and burned when I
came up for tenure. Instead of trying again at another University, I
reminded myself of all the things that pissed me off about academia and
swore the whole thing off for good. So as a source of advice for Mark,
I'm coming simultaneously from ahead and behind. I know all about
getting PhD's. Did it myself and served as advisor for four other
people who got theirs. But when I failed I never even attempted a
second try, and never will, though in many ways I miss being "Professor
Wolter". The title has built in prestige, whereas calling myself "Dr
Wolter" when I'm not an MD just seems silly and pretentious.
I don't think having a PhD does much for me post-academia. Mostly
people either don't know I have one, or have forgotten I have one.
Occasionally I get some mail addressed to "Dr Wolter". It's always
from the U of M Alumni Fundraisers, who seem to be the only people who
still care. I do occasionally tromp it out to impress idiots, but most
of the respect I get in my programming business is for my programming,
not my degree.
I think part of the difference in our motivation is the fields. You
like doing math (but can program). I like programming (but can do
math). Nobody needs a PhD to earn money and respect in the programming
business. The math business is not the same. Maybe you really do need
the PhD.
Funny, I got inspired my a movie too. In my case "Hook". Problem is,
I've forgotten exactly what I was inspired to do. It was either the
idea of taking a year off from work to do some of my own stuff, or to
dump academia and go freelance. One of the problems I had with the
professor job was that once in it, my future seemed all mapped out -
assistant professor, associate professor, full professor, emeritus
professor, teach classes, apply for grants, publish papers, maybe jump
universities a couple times along the way. A rut long and deep enough
to contain the rest of my life. One of the advantages of being
freelance is that I no longer know what my future will hold. Leaves
more room for dreaming. Anyway, "Hook" was a inspiration for escaping
the rut, I just can't remember which escape it inspired.
My second cousin graduated with a PhD in Math from Berkeley and got a
job for JPL. It had something to do with calculating trajectories for
unmanned space probes. She said everyone thought her job was cool, but
it was actually boring. She left it years ago. I have the feeling
that being at NASA/JPL is kind of like being a forest ranger. Lots of
people want to be rangers (outdoorsy, adventurous, authoritative,
sociable). So they can get lots of really good rangers even though the
pay is terrible and the working conditions are awful. They can even
get lots of good people to work in crummy stupid non-ranger jobs,
because they are hoping it will be a stepping stone to one of the few
really cool jobs. I'm guessing my cousin had one of the boring, stupid
jobs at JPL. Maybe space has gotten unfashionable enough so that this
isn't as true anymore. Maybe it was never true. I'm over-generalizing
from one data point.
Come to think of it, I had another good friend who worked at JPL. He
did a lot of design work on mobile robots for Mars exploration. He was
something of a natural politician and soon advanced high enough so that
he had funds at his disposal. Whenever I'd see him at a conference, it
would been nearly impossible to talk because there would be flocks of
hungry academics fluffing their feathers around him, hoping to attract
some grant money. He actually seemed to enjoy the robot work, but I
lost touch with him and don't know what he's up to.
My advisor did a lot of work on the Space Station Freedom project,
serving on lots and lots of committees, where they discussed all sorts
of issues about how to handle large space construction projects, until
the project got downsized into a small space construction project.
Though I always used to think space would be the coolest thing, none of
these things ever looked all that tempting to me.
Re-take the exams.
The exams serve three purposes. First, they ensure well-roundedness in
the students - a student receiving a PhD in math should be pretty darn
good at real analysis even if his thesis is in topology (some
universities achieve this with exams, some with distribution
requirements, many with both). Second, they ensure that students
starting on thesis research have a solid foundation of knowledge to
work on. Third, they weed out the under-motivated and hopelessly dim
students.
I remember studying for the exams as an extremely educational
experience. I'd had all the courses. Reviewing and relearning all
that material for a second time tied it together in my mind much more
completely than the first time around. You've been away from this
stuff much longer that I ever was. An excuse to review and restudy all
this material would probably do you a lot of good.
Plus, this is the horse that threw you last time. Are you still under-
motivated? Might as well find out up front. You seem to have doubts
about your own ability to pass these exams. That's a much bigger
problem than some old professor doubting you. Confront them. Anyway,
look at all the dopes who manage to pass them. I used to make up
questions for these things, and we'd always bend over backwards to make
them fair and easy. Half the purpose of the exam was already served
before the student started taking it. And the people we wanted to
filter out would be filtered out even by quite straightforward
questions. Those aren't worth being intimidated by.
You seem to be good at finding people to study with. I was never able
to do that as a student - I always worked alone unless an assignment
required you to work as a team. I didn't learn about finding groups to
work with until I was a professor. Get yourself a study group for the
exam, so you can teach it as you relearn it. Approached with the right
mindset, you could have fun surveying the field with some other bright
people.
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aruba
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response 32 of 98:
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Apr 21 04:25 UTC 2002 |
Hmmm. Taking the exams wasn't the horse that threw me. In fact they were
the last clear-cut requirement I had before I left, and I worked at it
until until I had passed them.
I will take them if I have to, but it will require at least a summer's worth
of studying, I think, and perhaps a whole year. And the content of the
exams has changed some since I took them, so I may have to take another
course (hopefully not all 6) in order to pass them.
I don't know what the ones you made up were like, but the ones I took
weren't easy. I don't doubt that I could pass them, given enough work.
And yes, I did learn some from studying for them.
But I want to get on with the rest of the work toward the degree, so I can
finish as soon as possible. I feel like I paid these particular dues,
learned what's required to be a well-rounded mathematician. If I don't
remember everything I knew 10 years ago, well, who does? Would that be
any different if I had finished, say, when Paul did in '96?
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beeswing
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response 33 of 98:
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Apr 21 06:02 UTC 2002 |
I still consider a PhD... I got my MA last year. I like the idea of
being an English professor. I think I'd enjoy it, and I actually dig
the "Dr" title. I could happily teach, provided I was given a wide
variety of courses and some eager students here and there.
Alas, grad school killed me financially (I had an assistantship which
paid my tuition, but the stipend I earned was meager). And the idea of
scraping by for another 3-4 years does not appeal to me in the least.
And like Mark, I think about the age issue. By the time I finished, I'd
be 33/34. And professorships aren't always easy to come by. So being in
my 30s, then searching for a job for years also doesn't work for me.
But a PhD in math, I think, is more lucrative than a PhD in English.
Not many English scholars needed at NASA. :)
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michaela
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response 34 of 98:
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Apr 21 06:44 UTC 2002 |
Jan - do you mean "Hook" as in the Robin Williams Peter Pan movie?
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janc
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response 35 of 98:
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Apr 21 12:23 UTC 2002 |
Yup. The movie has many defects, and the lesson I drew from it isn't
actually in it, exactly, but the feeling I was looking for sort of is.
It mostly just happened to be there at the right time.
I'd missed that Mark had passed all three exams. I'd thought he only
did two out of three. Then I'm less inclined to think the tests should
be redone, but if the department wants you to, I wouldn't consider it
any great problem, and even marginally useful.
Do you have an idea of what area you'd want to do a thesis in? It
might be time to start building connections with the relevant faculty.
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cmcgee
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response 36 of 98:
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Apr 21 13:26 UTC 2002 |
Relevant faculty is what I meant by mentor. Someone who thinks of you as
"his" student is much more likely to _consistently_ help you around
obstacles, as opposed to an advisor, who doesn't feel the same personal
stake in your success.
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keesan
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response 37 of 98:
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Apr 21 13:51 UTC 2002 |
Last I heard, UM paid its graduate student teaching assistants about $18K per
year plus tuition and health insurance. A friend of ours became a park ranger
and said he spent half his time telling people where the bathroom and the
nearest coke machine were, and the other rangers did nothing with their free
time but watch TV (in the Smokies and Hawaii). He became an 8th grade
teacher instead. Hopefully Mark already likes the work he would be doing with
a math PhD.
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aruba
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response 38 of 98:
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Apr 21 14:53 UTC 2002 |
Re #35: The requirements were, and are, that everyone has to pass 2
qualifier exams, and pass the relevant courses in the other area(s). There
used to be 3 areas (algebra, analysis, and topology) and since I passed
they have added a fourth (applied analysis). I passed the topology exam
shortly after finishing the course sequence, and the algebra exam (on the
second try) the following January.
So I did only pass 2 exams, but taking a third would have been fairly
massochistic, since it wasn't required. :)
I've been thinking about what you said, though, Jan, and I could study
this summer and possibly pass in the fall. The problem is I really don't
know how long it will take me to remember all that stuff, and I'm worried
about new stuff they've added.
I'm thinking about working in coding theory. Coding theory is about
finding effiicient ways of encoding information to send over a noisy
channel, so that it can be reconstructed on the other end even if there
are some errors in the transfer. I am just finishing a course in it now.
It went well, and the professor seems like a nice guy. It meets most of
my criteria for an area I want to work in, which are:
1. I'd like something more discrete than continuous, and more algebraic
than analytic.
2. I'd like to do something that people outside of mathematics care about,
at least a little.
3. If at all possible, I'd like to draw pictures.
4. If at all possible, I'd like to be able to do some programming to
support my research.
Last semester, we didn't get to draw any pictures, but my understanding is
that there are some codes that derive from geometric objects (elliptic
curves). I plan to take a course on that in the fall. I'd also like to
learn some about cryptography, though it seems that there is no one in the
math department who is deep into it. But the Electrical
Engineering/Computer Science department (EECS) has a course, and I could
take that for one of my cognate requirements.
So I plan on asking my professor from last semester if he'll be willing to
work with me.
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chanur
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response 39 of 98:
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Apr 21 17:58 UTC 2002 |
Well, I'm coming at this from what may be a whole other world -- as a Ph.D.
student in Culture Studies, which is a bit of a marginalized field in its own
right, but I found that the so-called "real world" of industry (working as an
editor and a part-time comp instructor) didn't allow me to pursue my vocational
passions the way I wanted to. Having earned an M.A. in English back in 1992, I
was still stuck doing donkey-work for a living for years afterward.
Then one day, on a Star Trek mailing list where I had made many good friends, I
joked that I wished I could get a Ph.D. by writing a dissertation on DS9. A
professor on the list wrote back to me privately and said: "You can. It's
called Culture Studies."
Once I found out that Bowling Green State University in Ohio had a program in
American Culture Studies that included Popular Culture and English as options
for areas of concentration, I knew what I had to do. I'd spent around seven
years in the informal "university" of fandom, becoming involved with and
passionate about that culture. I had seen academic work done on the culture of
fandom (most notably Henry Jenkins' fabulous book "Textual Poachers") -- and I
knew this was where I had to go to merge my obsession with my vocation. My
professor friend from the DS9 list wrote one of my letters of recommendation,
and after a slow start in putting together my application, I was tapped for a
teaching assistantship.
Grad school certainly hasn't been all fun and games. I was 35 when I started;
I'm 37 now and have a three-month-old son. Life is only going to get more
complex from here on, but I love what I'm doing. I'm helping to edit a
collection of scholarly essays on slash fiction, and I start on my dissertation
in the fall. I would encourage anyone who wants a Ph.D. to do it. I'm sure that
some schools and some departments are tougher than others, but for me anyway,
this really was something that I felt strongly "called" to do (as weird as that
sounds). I love the idea of writing pointy-headed research on TV shows for the
rest of my life ... in between writing fanfic epics, of course.
So my advice is the old Joseph Campbell saw "follow your bliss" -- and don't
let a couple of cranky faculty members get you down (you'll find them
everywhere). You will find support from mentors in your field when and where
you need it -- if you keep looking.
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aruba
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response 40 of 98:
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Apr 21 19:52 UTC 2002 |
Thanks Chris, and Trisha, and Sindi and Colleen. It seems clear that
different people have very different experiences with the whole dynamic of
graduate school (as separated from the actual coursework and research).
Colleen seems to have a positive attitude about finding a mentor and making
the system work for you. Jan seems to have been so focussed that everything
was easy. On my first time, I hated the system too much to even think about
making it work for me. That's still my first reaction - to be pissed off
at having my freedoms impinged upon. But I'm a lot different person now
than I was then, and I think I have enough faith in myself that I can give
up some freedom in exchange for a degree down the road.
But I'd also like to use the system as best I can. Can anyone tell stories
about beurocratic and dcitatorial obstacles they've overcome? (Either in
school or elsewhere.)
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slynne
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response 41 of 98:
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Apr 21 20:07 UTC 2002 |
I dont have any great advice for you, aruba, as I have not really done
the grad school thing. But, one thing you mentioned stuck out for me
and that was that you felt you were being treated like a teenager. I
know that one of the reasons I hate school is that I tend to put my own
crazy emotional issues into the picture way more than I should. I have
a hard time accepting grades for what they are: measures of performance
and instead often see them as judgments of my character or worth. I
always end up feeling like a child so I get really sensitive that I am
being treated like a teenager. *shrug* I just wonder if maybe your own
feelings of anxiety are making you feel like a teenager to the point
where you are misinterpreting the professor's motives (obviously, I
wasnt there so I have no idea how you were actually treated)
I really admire your courage in this. It isnt easy to face an area in
one's life that one feels they have left incomplete.
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janc
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response 42 of 98:
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Apr 21 21:09 UTC 2002 |
In graduate school, I had no life and felt no burning need for one. I
was also in exactly the right field. Spending my days writing programs,
talking about programs, and writing about programs suited me perfectly
(with a little time off for M-Net). Still does. I was in an
interdepartmental program and had two advisors from two different
departments. (I've always loved interdisciplinary collaborations - I
never worked on any research project that didn't have people with non-
computer degrees in major roles.) One of my advisors was something of a
departmental heavyweight which is good because his mere presence probably
discouraged obstacles from appearing, but was bad because he was heavily
overscheduled, and didn't have that much time. Having another advisor
who actually had time to think about our work when not in a meeting with
me, was good. There are obviously risks with having two advisors (mostly
if they don't get along) but it worked out great for me. (After I
graduated, one of them became department chairman at Texas A&M and hired
me, and the other became an NSF program director and funded me - how
lucky can you get?)
I don't think you can count on find an advisor and having him immediately
wave a wand and clear all obstacles. Mostly before an advisor is going
to spend a lot of effort on you, you're going to have to prove that you
are worth it - that you can do useful work.
When Chris applied for the PhD program, she had *already* written and
published a paper in a professional conference, quite on her own. You
don't have to do that, but it would be good to get into a research
project and start doing useful stuff as early as possible. I started
working with my future advisors the year I started my MS degree, two
years before I started in the PhD program. When I got around to the PhD
stuff, I was accepted into the PhD program at Berkeley, but my advisors
bribed me into staying with them (one found me a three-year fellowship,
the other a cool summer job). I decided it'd be better to stay where I
was valued.
Anyway, finding an advisor is definately important. I had excellent
ones. But you do have to be careful. There are lots of bad ones around,
and there is probably no bigger obstacle you could hit than one of those
monkeys.
I think internationally famous superstar researchers are mostly not that
great, at least not until you graduate. After you graduate, you'll be
"Dr Bigg's student" which gives you a little second had prestige that
last long enough to help you get your first job. But you want someone
who gets a decent amount of respect in the field.
More useful is that the professor actually enjoys talking to graduate
students about his or her research. That is, he cares about the actual
content of his research, and cares about students enough to listen to
what you say as well as talk to you. Professors locked into academic
wars with anyone are also risky, especially if it is with people in the
same department. An advisor who does not have generally good relations
with most of his colleagues is likely to be trouble.
I wish I had really good advice to give on choosing an advisor. Mostly I
just got lucky, and had the sense to notice and hold onto what I had.
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aruba
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response 43 of 98:
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Apr 22 03:09 UTC 2002 |
Re #41: Lynne - I think you are correct, that I bring my own baggage into
an interaction like that. I think you have me pegged pretty well. I try
to keep repeating to myself that I'm just as worthy a person today as I
was on thursday, but all weekend I've been obsessing about the experience
on friday.
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slynne
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response 44 of 98:
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Apr 22 16:42 UTC 2002 |
Just remember. You are good enough, you are smart enough and gosh darn
it! People like you ;)
Seriously though, I think affirmations can help a lot although I aways
end up cracking up when I do them.
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aruba
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response 45 of 98:
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Apr 22 16:44 UTC 2002 |
Oh yeah? What's your favorite one?
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slynne
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response 46 of 98:
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Apr 22 19:36 UTC 2002 |
I have a few favorites although they change with my mood or with a
specific situation. For school, I have to do affirmations that have to
do with a fear of failure. I look in the mirror and say "This test is
not a test of my worth" or "I am smart enough" Sometimes I do just
simply say to myself "I am good enough" although this is why I often
crack up. Fuck you Al Franken and your Stuart Smalley character! ;)
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aruba
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response 47 of 98:
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Apr 27 00:55 UTC 2002 |
So I have been asking around to get advice about how to handle the
situation. Carol and I have a friend, Bruce Sagan, who is a math professor
at MSU who happens to have the same specialty as Prof. Stembridge. So I got
Carol to ask Bruce if he knew Prof. Stembridge, and in fact he knows him
very well.
Carol and I went over to Bruce's to ask his advice. He told me that Prof.
Stembridge is basically a good guy, and that I should ask Prof. Taylor, who
used to be chair of the department (and, when I was a grad student last
time, he had Stembridge's job), and who was the first one to encourage me to
come back.
So today I met with Prof. Taylor. He was again very encouraging - I wish he
was still the Doctoral Chair! He said that Prof. Stembridge was probably
just being careful, because they have been burned before by people who
were admitted to the program in an unusual way and then didn't make much
progress.
He said the best thing for me to do is not to see Prof. Stembridge right
away. Rather, I should get an advisor, work out a plan for next year with
him, and take that to Stembridge. That will satisfy him more than anything
else I could say. That makes a lot of sense to me.
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jep
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response 48 of 98:
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Apr 27 01:45 UTC 2002 |
That does sound good. I don't understand academic politics at all,
though. A very puzzling milieu, universities.
Good luck, Mark. When do you start taking classes? Are you going to
be a full-time student? I kept meaning to ask that...
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senna
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response 49 of 98:
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Apr 27 05:25 UTC 2002 |
That reminds me to ask, what does Carol think about this? Perhaps you've
answered it elsewhere and I've missed it, in which case I apologize.
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