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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 63 responses total. |
davel
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response 25 of 63:
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Jan 14 15:12 UTC 2002 |
Actually, I'd have to protest that they aren't really homophones. When I say
them, anyway, the first vowel in "mnemonic" is a short "e", but the first
vowel in "pneumonic" is one of the long-"u" set.
I'll admit that I think I've heard "mneumonic", but I also know someone who
regularly uses this word in talking to me (I'm giving tech support to him,
you understand) and who says "nemonic". The word's uncommon enough & unusual
enough in form to confuse people. And then remember that Rane insists that
"dog", "log", "fog", & "frog" don't rhyme ... you never know what people will
do to a word.
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brighn
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response 26 of 63:
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Jan 14 15:36 UTC 2002 |
For most speakers of English, all unstressed vowels are pronounced as schwa.
The first syllable in this case is unstressed, so *in casual speech* the two
words are homophones for most speakers of English.
The problem with stating that two words are homophones is, as you point out,
they may not be homophones for all speakers, or under all contexts. "Aural"
and "oral" *can* be distinguished in careful speech, and "writer" and "rider"
have an incredibly subtle difference that doesn't normally show up in casual
speech, but pops up in careful speech. "Which" and "witch" aren't homophones
for those increasingly rare speakers who still say /hwIc/ for "which" and
/wIc/ for "witch," while "pin" and "pen" are homophones in parts of the South,
but say them the same in the North and you'll likely get an odd glance.
Rane, what are your grounds for saying those four words don't rhyme? That's
a new one to me.
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orinoco
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response 27 of 63:
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Jan 14 18:35 UTC 2002 |
They don't rhyme for me either. Isn't there a discussion of this in another
item? I say /dog/, /lAg/, /fAg/, /frAg/.
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rcurl
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response 28 of 63:
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Jan 14 18:39 UTC 2002 |
It is just dog that doesn't rhyme with log, fog, bog, etc (in my dialect
and that of many others). In fact, for me, nothing rhymes with dog,
except some prefixes, like aug- . I write the distinction as being
dog is pronounced like dawg, while log is prnounced like lahg.
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brighn
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response 29 of 63:
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Jan 14 19:26 UTC 2002 |
#27, 28> Ok, that makes sense. Suggesting there are four different vowels
doesn't make sense, but I've heard /dawg/ too. Incidentally, "white," "wide,"
and "wine" all have different phonetic vowels, which is why "whiter" and
"wider" sound different in formal speech, but nearly the same in casual speech
(/t/ > [D] and /d/ > [D] between vowels).
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keesan
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response 30 of 63:
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Jan 14 21:48 UTC 2002 |
I pronounce the i in wide longer than in white but probably the same as in
wine.
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brighn
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response 31 of 63:
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Jan 14 21:56 UTC 2002 |
No, you don't. Not if you speak English. ;}
Go find a French speaker and get them to explain it to you. You could start
by asking them the difference between "chien" and "chienne."
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rcurl
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response 32 of 63:
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Jan 14 22:07 UTC 2002 |
I do the same as keesan - extending the i sound in wide for a longer
time than in white. White comes out more "clipped". The i in wide
might transition into a dipthong. Can't tell, and my mouth is freezing up.
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brighn
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response 33 of 63:
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Jan 14 23:41 UTC 2002 |
Oh, I didn't mean to say that Keesan doesn't pronounce "white" and "wide"
differently, I meant to say that she also pronounces the vowel in "wine"
differently.
The relevant rules in English:
-- Vowels are shortened before voiceless consonants: "white" has a shorter
vowel, while the vowel in "wide," "wine," and "why" are the same length.
-- Vowels are nasalized before nasal consonants: "wine" has a nasal vowel,
while the vowel in "wide," "white," and "why" are non-nasal.
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davel
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response 34 of 63:
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Jan 15 13:48 UTC 2002 |
You forgot "whine". 8-{)]
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davel
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response 35 of 63:
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Jan 15 13:52 UTC 2002 |
I didn't mean to suggest that Rane said he pronounced them all differently,
but I couldn't remember which one(s) he said didn't rhyme with each other.
Re "pin" & "pen": but in at least some parts of the south where they're
pronounced the same, they're both "pee-yun", remember.
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brighn
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response 36 of 63:
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Jan 15 15:08 UTC 2002 |
I wuz born in Misery, but I moved to Michigan when I was just past a year old,
so I'm shur many of the nuances wuz loss to me. Alls I know is the udder kids
used to laugh at me when I axed for a pen cuz they wanet to know how I wuz
gonna write wit a pin.
#34> "whine" and "wine" are homophones for most speakers of English. ;}
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rcurl
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response 37 of 63:
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Jan 15 19:56 UTC 2002 |
I purse my lips more saying whine than I do saying wine. Sort of the
difference bewteen where and were.
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brighn
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response 38 of 63:
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Jan 15 22:02 UTC 2002 |
prolly an artifact of the older, more aspirated distinction (when wh- was
pronounced as /hw/, not as /w/).
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keesan
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response 39 of 63:
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Jan 15 22:17 UTC 2002 |
I pronounced the o sound in tot shorter than that in taught. Do some people
pronounce them as totally different vowels? I taught the tot, the tot was
taught to totter....
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gelinas
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response 40 of 63:
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Jan 16 03:49 UTC 2002 |
That explains Tolkien's suggestion for use of the Tengwar.
Two vowels for me: short-o vs /au/
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brighn
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response 41 of 63:
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Jan 16 04:33 UTC 2002 |
#39, 40> Put your hand under your chin lightly and say, in order:
boot, put, boat, pot, bought
These are the five "back" vowels of English, in order of tongue height. It
also happens that the words starting with "b" have tense vowels, which means
that they are indeed pronounced longer than the lax vowels. For some speakers
of English, "pot" and "bought" have the same vowel.
beat, pit, bait, pet, bat
These are the five "front" vowels, and follow the same patternalthough I'm
not aware of anyone confusing "bet" and "bat."
The other phonemic vowel is in "but". There are eleven phonemic vowels in
standard English.
Now, phonetic vowels are a different story. I could discuss this in detail
if anyone,s interested, but it gets long-winded, so I'll wait for someone to
ask.
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keesan
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response 42 of 63:
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Jan 16 15:50 UTC 2002 |
In New England pot and bought rhyme but ough is longer than o.
In New England merry marry and mary have the same vowels as met mat mate.
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gelinas
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response 43 of 63:
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Jan 16 21:09 UTC 2002 |
I suspect that were I to issue the command "Marry merry Mary" no one would
have the foggiest idea what I said.
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gracel
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response 44 of 63:
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Jan 17 13:11 UTC 2002 |
When I was taking a basic linguistics course (around 1970) in central
Illinois, the instructor was pleasantly surprised that *one* person in the
room was able to demonstrate distinct "marry", "merry" and "Mary" --
I think the student in question was from Boston.
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keesan
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response 45 of 63:
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Jan 17 17:39 UTC 2002 |
Then there is very hairy Harry.
It took me a while to figure out that in Michigan very and dairy rhyme, as
in Dairy Good advertising. Why is bury pronounced berry?
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brighn
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response 46 of 63:
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Jan 17 17:54 UTC 2002 |
It's not. Berry is pronounced bury. ;}
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rcurl
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response 47 of 63:
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Jan 17 18:19 UTC 2002 |
I don't pronounce them the same.
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brighn
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response 48 of 63:
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Jan 17 18:29 UTC 2002 |
I do pronounce bury, berry, and Barry the same, but have also heard bury
pronounced like burry (riddled with burrs).
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blaise
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response 49 of 63:
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Jan 17 19:49 UTC 2002 |
Interesting. I pronounce berry and bury the same, but pronounce Barry
differently (and pronounce barry still differently -- what do you expect, I'm
a herald ;->).
(berry/bury has roughly the vowel sound in bet; Barry the vowel sound in bat,
and barry the vowel sound in bar.)
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