response 242 of 378:

Mar 9 18:33 UTC 2006

resp:237 I wasnt being passive aggresive. I was out and out saying that 
your comments about the 600lb woman were prejudiced. That doesnt mean, 
btw, that I think you are self-loathing. But I do think that a lot of 
fat people have prejudices against fat people in general. I know that 
for a lot of my life I certainly have shared a lot of prejudices 
against fat people. e.g. That they eat too much, that they could lose 
weight if they had self-discipline, they are going to die young, they 
cost society a lot of money, etc. 

I know no one likes it when their prejudices are pointed out. I think 
bru is still mad at me for suggesting that he might have a bias towards 
white men. But, sometimes I think it is important to speak up when one 
sees discrimination in the world no matter where it happens to be even 
if that means that one ends up being unpopular. I also know that I both 
dont like it and am grateful whenever anyone points out the prejudices 
that I happen to have (and since I am human, I have them...everyone 
does) 

On a side note, NPR had a good story this morning about how local news 
outlets' health coverage is often flat out wrong. I have notice that a 
lot of sensational obesity stories I have seen have been on the local 
news and I have to wonder how often those stories were wrong. How much 
of the information we all think we know is really speculation based in 
a culture of fat hatred and fat fear?

response 244 of 378:

Mar 9 18:44 UTC 2006

re #242 slynne, are you saying that you think fat people are more prejudiced
against other fat people than skinny or normal sized people are?  Do you think
edina got her surgery because she hates fat people>?  

response 246 of 378:

Mar 9 18:49 UTC 2006

personally I have more sympathy for fat people than I do for really skinny
people, girls who become bulimic so they can maintain skeletal figures, and
who weigh 90 pounds and their ribs are showing, and they still think they're
fat.  

response 248 of 378:

Mar 9 20:32 UTC 2006

resp:243 - You can think that if you would like. I suppose in a way it 
is true. I didnt go to the doctor at first because I had a vague 
feeling that I didnt really want to go. I didnt explore the feeling at 
first and because I have always been pretty healthy my whole life (or 
at least I feel healthy), I didnt explore the feeling much. Then, I 
started thinking I should go while at the same time I noticed that 
whenever I thought about going I started having physical symptoms of 
anxiety in my body. So I started wondering why I was essentially afraid 
to go to the doctor. The reasons turned out to be more complex than I 
want to go into but a big part of it was fear that they would get on my 
case about my weight and that they would assume things about my 
behavior based on my weight and that they would treat me badly. I got 
over my anxiety by reading a lot of obesity research. I know that diets 
tend to fail. I know that the health risks of obesity are exaggerated 
in the media. I know that there is little consensious among researchers 
about the success of diets and the health risks of obesity. I know that 
doctors and nurses are just as likely to have prejudices as anyone else 
and that they are sometimes wrong.  So now I feel ok about going 
because I know that even if they do tell me that I am going to die 
young because of my weight and that I have to go on a diet, they are 
not necessarily correct. But FWIW, I dont really feel that I have to 
justify not going to the doctor for so long to anyone but myself. I 
think fear is a good enough reason. 

resp:244 - no, that isnt what I am saying. But I think that some fat 
people buy into the notion that fat people are bad. It is similar to 
how some women buy into the whole right-wing sexist notion that men 
should be the head of the household and women dont have a right to 
their own bodies kind of thing. Just because a person is a member of a 
group that is discriminated against, it doesnt mean that they dont hold 
the same views about themselves and other members of their group as 
people in the mainstream culture do. 

resp:245 - Are your beliefs about winos based on facts or about beliefs 
that you have about alcoholics? 

resp:246 - I have a LOT more sympathy for people who are anorexic or 
bulemic than for people who are fat. As I have said over and over, 
being fat is a state of being and it is a state of being where one is 
discriminated against. But anorexia and bulemia are very serious mental 
disorders. Here is a little fact. Anerexia is the most lethal mental 
illness in the DSM-IV because many anorexics literally starve 
themselves to death. 

response 250 of 378:

Mar 9 21:16 UTC 2006

re #248
  So now I feel ok about going
 because I know that even if they do tell me that I am going to die
 young because of my weight and that I have to go on a diet, they are
 not necessarily correct. 
I could say the same about smoking.  And if I were still a smoker, and die
of lung cancer, then everyone has a right to hate me for being a selfish
suicidal dick after they warned me.  They can put "denial" on my headstone.

 resp:245 - Are your beliefs about winos based on facts or about beliefs
 that you have about alcoholics?
Combo of both but for the most part just factual and obvious to anybody with
a spit dribble's worth of common sense.  I know you like to play obtuse about
the whole thing of obesity and I don't think I can convince you that seeing
a doc at least once every 2 years and taking their healthy advice is good for
you.  If you die of enlarged heart or anything else related to obesity then
I will feel real fucking bad but at least I won't feel guilty for not having
said anything.  Hell, maybe guys like me that are also obese who make topics
out of it are just pushing folks like you further into denial.  Fuck if I
know.  Life is too short so good luck.

response 252 of 378:

Mar 9 21:34 UTC 2006

no edina you've belittled her and you've been belittling her.  Its as if,
because you had this surgery and lost all this weight, you think you can be
self righteous and preach to all other fat people or overweight people.

response 254 of 378:

Mar 9 21:50 UTC 2006

re 252  Wow.  That's just amazing.  First off, you are an idiot.  Secondly,
if Lynne wanted the surgery, I'd think - cool - and if she didn't, I'd think
the same thing.  It's a personal decision and I understand why she's not for
it.  Thirdly, the only thing I'll ever tell any fat person who is
bitching/commenting/orating/whining about being discriminated against is that
it is up to them to stand up for themselves.  E.R. said it best when she said
the only person who can make you feel inferior is yourself.

Now step off and go get your thorazine shot.

response 256 of 378:

Mar 9 21:55 UTC 2006

Christ, you don't read a word anyone says, do you?

response 258 of 378:

Mar 9 22:00 UTC 2006

Lynne, do you feel like Brooke was belittling you?

response 260 of 378:

Mar 9 22:01 UTC 2006

That is not what I said - or at least, you are very much A) presuming and B)
taking a few words out of context.  Read it again and tell me how I'm oh so
belittling.

response 262 of 378:

Mar 9 22:06 UTC 2006

We are jep.

response 264 of 378:

Mar 9 22:12 UTC 2006

resp:250 Denial is a funny thing. I dont think I am in denial about 
smoking and I think a big part of that is that there is consistant 
research that shows that there is a negative health consequence to 
smoking and that it is significant. There are some studies that show 
that smoking isnt too bad for you but all of them were conducted by 
tobacco companies so I feel ok about not considering them as valid as 
the other studies. 

And I am not in denial that severe obesity (more than 100lbs overweight 
which is a catagory I fall into) is a health risk for certain things. I 
have read studies that have shown that obesity is a risk if one has to 
have surgury. It is a risk for certain types of cancer. It is a risk 
for heart disease. But it isnt as great of a risk as most people think 
and even if it were, there is a LOT of evidence that shows that other 
than gastric bypass surgury there are no weight loss methods that have 
acceptable rates of success for me. The best one anyone here has 
presented is that if a person goes on a medically supervised very low 
calorie diet, they will lose a very small amount of weight (if they are 
average). But I have been on very low calorie diets and I know that 
they make me feel bad and I am not willing to live my life that way for 
some kind of unconfirmed health benefit. 

Beware about common sense, btw. It is often wrong. On an unrelated side 
note, if you want a really fun read that is full of examples about how 
common sense is often wrong and how once one reads the numbers, a 
different conclusion comes up, get _Freakonomics_. 

resp:251 I absolutely feel comfortable in my own skin. But that doesnt 
mean that I like being treated in a negative way because of my weight. 
It doesnt mean that I dont know that my life would be a lot easier in 
some ways if I were thin. I think I probably have a better self-esteem 
than a lot of people including a lot of thin people. I certainly am 
able to handle being accused of "being in denial" when I say that I 
dont think that I am lazy or undisciplined because I am fat. I dont 
think my weight is a character flaw. I even think I am kind of 
beautiful although I also, at the same time, recognize that most other 
people probably dont think so. 

resp:258 I think Brooke has made this a little more personal than I 
would have liked and it does bother me a little bit that whenever there 
is a discussion about weight discrimination and prejudice, someone will 
always accuse the fat people of being in denial. That happens in almost 
every weight discrimination discussion I have ever been in. Truthfully, 
I expected it when I first entered this item. I think it is because a 
lot of the negative feelings about weight are very ingrained and people 
dont give them up easily. They are faced with a choice. Because I 
refuse to believe that being fat is as unhealthy as most people think 
and because I believe that being fat is a state of being that people 
dont have as much control over as they think, they either have to agree 
with me or they have to think that I am in denial. There are almost 
certainly a lot more people here than tod and edina who think I am in 
denial about this. I expect that. Challenging common prejudices is very 
hard. But all in all, I dont think she is belittling me.  I certainly 
dont feel belittled. 

response 266 of 378:

Mar 9 22:49 UTC 2006

 And I am not in denial that severe obesity (more than 100lbs overweight
 which is a catagory I fall into) is a health risk for certain things. I
 have read studies that have shown that obesity is a risk if one has to
 have surgury. It is a risk for certain types of cancer. It is a risk
 for heart disease. But it isnt as great of a risk as most people think
I think 35 lbs over is obese and 100 lbs over is "morbidly obese".
Certainly the threats to life are mostly related to heart disease but the
risks to health are much greater when one is morbidly obese. I don't consider
those facts some sort of prejudice or folklore.  Knee problems are very common
for the morbidly obese.  Enlarged heart by itself should be enough to get a
person into the doc let alone knowing your cholesterol levels.