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Grex > Coop11 > #173: Motion to make scribble permanently erase response text | |
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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 255 responses total. |
kaplan
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response 222 of 255:
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Jun 28 00:54 UTC 2000 |
If you had paid for at least 3 months before the polls closed ($18),
your vote would have counted. You don't have to wait the 3 months
between pay time and vote time.
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aruba
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response 223 of 255:
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Jun 28 01:40 UTC 2000 |
Right. Sarah - if you get money to me, I'll see that it gets to flem.
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jmsaul
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response 224 of 255:
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Jun 28 01:48 UTC 2000 |
So, assuming no paying member who voted in the last election changes their
vote, the net cost to make you collectively see sense on this issue would
be $108. That's pretty cheap.
(To steal a phrase, we've already established what Grex is; we're just
negotiating the price.)
Have you thought out the implications of your "perfect democracy" where
voting rights are available for $18 a head? And if you have, why in the
name of whatever you hold dear are you provoking people who are already
pissed at you to think about it?
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gypsi
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response 225 of 255:
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Jun 28 02:32 UTC 2000 |
Mark - yeah, but I don't want to put that responsibility on you just 'cause
I keep forgetting to mail a check every month. =)
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aruba
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response 226 of 255:
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Jun 28 02:44 UTC 2000 |
Speaking for myself, I've thought about it a lot. Anyone is welcome to
come to Grex and become a member. There's no question that that means our
system is fragile - if anyone were sufficiently motivated, they could find
a way to take over the system.
We operate on the good will of our users. And, frankly, there isn't a lot
to gain in taking over Grex. Because Grex *is* its users, and if someone
were to take it over and chase away the users, what would be left?
Joe, I've worked very hard for Grex, and I care about it a lot. I care
about it enough to be very sad at the prospect of something like a
takeover happening. But despite that I still believe in the democratic
system we have. Because if we didn't have that, it wouldn't be the same
place.
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aruba
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response 227 of 255:
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Jun 28 02:45 UTC 2000 |
gypsi slipped in - #226 was a response to #224.
Sarah - well, whatever it takes. :)
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spooked
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response 228 of 255:
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Jun 28 03:21 UTC 2000 |
Woohoo - my vote, and sentiment, was backed up (:
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jmsaul
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response 229 of 255:
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Jun 28 03:55 UTC 2000 |
Enjoy reading that stuff, eh?
Re #226: I think it's very noble. It just probably isn't a good idea to
encourage people to think in terms of buying votes. I admit I'm
kind of surprised as to how easy it would be.
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md
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response 230 of 255:
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Jun 28 04:03 UTC 2000 |
You could've bought mine, no prob.
[Some anonymous person used to keep on buying me mnet
memberships (or patronships or whatever) and I could
never find out who it was or why they did it. In fact,
I was starting to think it was some fluke in the
accounting system, but then mnet turned to mush and I
left and never pursued the matter. Anyway, the only
thing I ever used it for was dialing in on the patron
lines, but telnet and the web interface have rendered
that moot.]
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janc
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response 231 of 255:
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Jun 28 04:08 UTC 2000 |
I'm interested in hearing what those who voted down this motion would
like to see instead - status quo? some other policy?
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other
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response 232 of 255:
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Jun 28 06:43 UTC 2000 |
Grex does not have the source to picospan. If the current Grex machine
were to die, we would likely replace it with a near duplicate, since it
is likely that what would be involved in the machine dying would not be
so systemic as to destroy all the parts, and we have much duplication.
Any source changes to picospan would have to be such that marcus would be
convinced that they were worth his time and the involved violation of the
terms of the license he holds to the software.
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remmers
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response 233 of 255:
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Jun 28 13:34 UTC 2000 |
I voted against the motion, but that's probably no surprise to
anyone. If we're going to keep scribble, I'd like to see better
advertising as to what it actually does. I'm not sure if that
would require modification to Picospan, but I heard Marcus
state at a board meeting that a better warning would be a
reasonable thing to do, so if it does require modification to
Picospan I don't expect that would be a barrier.
Coupled with any warning about scribble, I would like to see
a clear statement that each user -- not Grex, but the user --
is responsible for his or her own words.
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flem
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response 234 of 255:
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Jun 28 13:37 UTC 2000 |
re resp:220 - Thanks, I'll take that as a compliment. :)
re resp:231 - Personally, I'm in the camp of those who'd like to see
scribble/erase disappear completely. In my opinion, the most accurate "real
world" analogy to this situation that I can think of is a newspaper with back
issues in the library. You may "own" writings of yours that you've allowed
to be published in the newspaper, but you can't un-write them. You can't get
back issues of newspapers removed from libraries because you no longer think
what you wrote, the best you can do is publish a retraction. Now, here's the
key point: This seems like a good system to me.
But I still don't think it's a very important issue.
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jmsaul
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response 235 of 255:
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Jun 28 13:49 UTC 2000 |
Another inane analogy to an non-analogous form of communication. How
compelling.
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jmsaul
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response 236 of 255:
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Jun 28 13:51 UTC 2000 |
(Coupled with another complete misunderstanding of the legal definition of
"publication," I should add.)
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aruba
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response 237 of 255:
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Jun 28 14:29 UTC 2000 |
I think Greg's analogy is pretty good, though Grex is kind of a hybrid
between a newspaper form of publication and a conversation. I've learned
from this discussion that some people think of it as more newspaper-like
and some think of it as more conversation-like.
Personally, I'm fine with the way things are now, though it concerns me that
other people are concerned. I was kind of hoping we had reached an
acceptable compromise.
The last time we had a very divisive vote like this (over making the
conferences available via the web), we lost a few members, but then it all
blew over. I hope that will happen again.
(Actually, there was one other strange vote in there, last summer's motion
about overturning the board's policy if we should lose the ACLU suit.
That was really just miscommunication, I think, though tempers certainly
did flare. That blew over too.)
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jmsaul
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response 238 of 255:
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Jun 28 14:47 UTC 2000 |
Greg's analogy is dumb. Grex is a BBS. BBSes have been around for almost
20 years now, so we should have enough idea how they work to just talk about
them, instead of trying to come up with strained analogies to other kinds of
speech. One of the things that is eminently practical on a BBS, even though
it's impossible in a football stadium, living room conversation, newspaper,
radio broadcast, Mayan stela, etc., etc. is allowing people to take their
words out of publication. In fact, it's very easy to do. So easy that most
users thought it was actually happening here for many years.
Grex doesn't have the limitation of hardcopy like a newspaper, and it
continues to publish your words years after you said them, unlike a
conversation where the words are spoken and then are not present for the
next person who walks into the room, let alone someone who walks in ten
years later. Stop trying to bind it to old paradigms of communication.
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jp2
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response 239 of 255:
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Jun 28 16:19 UTC 2000 |
This response has been erased.
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scott
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response 240 of 255:
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Jun 28 16:40 UTC 2000 |
Um, if you're that worried about not being able to "contla your own text",
you might think about limiting the amount you put here.
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scott
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response 241 of 255:
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Jun 28 16:41 UTC 2000 |
Substitute "control" for "contla". I need to stop typing ahead of the netlag.
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flem
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response 242 of 255:
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Jun 28 16:47 UTC 2000 |
Oh, sorry, I forgot. I'm an idiot. I'll change my mind right away...
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jmsaul
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response 243 of 255:
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Jun 28 17:18 UTC 2000 |
Re #240-1: In other words, if I don't like your policy, I should leave.
Don't worry, I will. As soon as M-Net's back up.
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scott
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response 244 of 255:
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Jun 28 19:36 UTC 2000 |
No, I'm not saying you should leave. I'd be happy if you cut your message
down to a few bullet points, that's all. ;)
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jmsaul
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response 245 of 255:
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Jun 28 19:54 UTC 2000 |
I'm hardly the most verbose person on Grex.
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mwg
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response 246 of 255:
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Jun 29 00:55 UTC 2000 |
I am of the opinion that the closest thing to an ethical position in this
question won. A forum like this should only remove text for two major
reasons, the avoidance of destructive litigation, and technical issues
like responses containing terminal control codes, raw HTML, or similar
destructive goop. The former would obviously have to vanish completely,
the latter could be stored elsewhere so as not to leap on the
unsuspecting.
I find the mere existance of the censor and scribble commands ethically
dubious, but as they don't actually erase anything, I see it as not worth
arguing over.
Warning people that they have to live with what they say is simply
reminding them of one of the fundamental principles by which life
operates.
As some people here can tell you, I have posted some incredibly stupid
things in my day, barring drive failures, it is all still here somewhere.
No doubt the hot coffee crowd will class this response and my position on
this matter as stupid, so be it.
While I would not leave Grex if such a vote were to go the other way, I
would take such a vote as a sign that the system was taking a destructive
heading in the long term.
I could go on, but I suspect that it would be pointless to do so.
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