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Grex > Coop13 > #376: The problems with Grex, e-mail and spam | |
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| 25 new of 480 responses total. |
cross
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response 214 of 480:
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Dec 12 19:00 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #210; With all due respect, I think that shows a lack of
understanding of the underlying issues as to *why* both Mic and myself
resigned from staff. Should we just let staff and board members insult us?
I mean, honestly.
How about this: I think it's bullshit that Marcus Watts is still in the
wheel group with root privileges when he hasn't been active on grex in
several years. I think it's bullshit that no one spoke to Steve about the
way he acted towards both Mic and I in the last go round. I think that it's
bullshit that major technical problems go unsolved on grex and people are
worried about ``huffs'' (which isn't how I see it at all, for the record)
and not about fixing the underlying problems because, God Forbid someone
should inadvertantly insult Marcus or Steve or anyone else in the process.
I think that it's bullshit that there is no accountability with staff
because we all want to sit around playing Happy Family and singing Kum Buy
Yah instead of facing some hard realities.
All Animals are Equal, but Some are More Equal than Others.
Regarding #213; The thing is, the staff *wants* to run itself as a
democracy. Or, a benevolent dictatorship. It's fine if Steve and Marcus
make any changes they want, but God Forbid someone should do something else
without consulting one of them first.
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spooked
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response 215 of 480:
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Dec 12 19:10 UTC 2006 |
Dan is spot on again. I have never spoken to him one-on-one, yet it is
quite clear to me he speaks the truth, fair-and-balanced by his reaccounts
(through the public record) of how staff operates versuses how it guises
to operate.
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spooked
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response 216 of 480:
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Dec 12 19:49 UTC 2006 |
I put this proposition forward. Staff decides whether it wants cross and
myself onboard by this Friday (it has already had weeks to decide). If by
this time, I have heard nothing, I will remove my offer of services and
utilise them elsewhere - you will not see or hear of me again on Grex,
ever.
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cyklone
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response 217 of 480:
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Dec 12 20:49 UTC 2006 |
Re #210: Are you willing to apply that standard to current staff as well? As
I recall, STeve was pretty "huffy" as well.
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keesan
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response 218 of 480:
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Dec 12 20:52 UTC 2006 |
How can 'staff' decide when it is a conglomeration of different people? I
don't think there is going to be a board meeting again until next year.
Please don't make statements like this, most of us want you here and you are
probably asking for something not possible. Can the board appoint a new or
returning staff member before the next meeting?
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jadecat
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response 219 of 480:
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Dec 12 20:57 UTC 2006 |
resp:214 I may not have a complete understanding of the event, but I did
read the items in coop. I also think that you would be a good addition
to staff. Additionally, I remember when you were a part of staff and a
few not-so-terrible things were said, then misinterpreted into the worst
light possible, you blew up at the writer and quit in a huff.
No, I don't think you should be insulted by staff and board. I think
perhaps you should grow a thicker skin as to what's insulting. My
intention, with my last post, was to say that you were very helpful and
useful when you were on staff. Then you let a situation get WAY out of
control and got mad and quit.
Let me also say that I don't worship at the shrine to Marcus and STeve.
Okay? I'm not going to sit here and claim that they are the only ones
who know what's in Grex's best technical interests. I think your, and
Mic's, input would be very valueable. I just want to see you stick
around long enough to implement your ideas! :)
resp:216 Ultimatums, even disguised as porpositions, rarely make the
giver look good, or make anyone want to give in to that person. Or maybe
that's just me, they tend to put my back up. It sounds petulant. "I
didn't get an apology so DO THIS or I'm taking my toys and going home."
I don't think that's what you intended, and I doubt that everyone else
will read your statement the way that I have. You know, too, that Grex
rarely, if even makes decisions on anything in less than a week's time.
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jadecat
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response 220 of 480:
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Dec 12 21:12 UTC 2006 |
resp:217 (which slipped in) Yeah, STeve got huffy- but he didn't quit
staff over it. Which to me is the difference. Sure, get upset, defend
your position, but don't allow yourself to be easily insulted, don't
have a hyper-reactive 'then I quit!' reflex, and don't take all of it so
personally.
I don't think current staff is perfect, most everything seems to take
too long, and I agree that STeve and Marcus seem to be the main factors
in all decisions. I'm not sure that's appropriate, especially given that
Marcus is too busy for Grex, and has been for years.
However, I'm also speaking as someone who enjoys Grex but doesn't have
any technical knowledge to speak of. I don't know UNIX/any of the BSDs,
I don't know how to implement programs (like Sindi's spam blocker), and
I pretty much just enjoy Grex for the social/community aspect.
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spooked
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response 221 of 480:
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Dec 12 21:18 UTC 2006 |
It has been more than a week, in fact several weeks (including Dan's
requests). Moreover, I was given assurances when I resigned that if I
wanted back in it would be done so promptly.
I am making definitive statements with regards to being wished-washed
around, not just with Grex staff - but also my professional work, and my
personal life. I'm at a stage of life where I don't need to prove myself
to anyone nor be trapped-in by political bullshit. I am offering my time
and services - Grex is NOT doing me a service, coincidentally something
lost on some of the Grex current staff. My statements in regard to how
Grex staff operates are not selfish, they are purely for the good of Grex
--- if people cannot see that, that's not my problem (it is theirs' and
Grex's).
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slynne
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response 222 of 480:
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Dec 12 22:01 UTC 2006 |
FWIW, I can understand why Grex has the system it currently has for
deciding who gets to be on staff. The staff basically makes
recommendations to the board. I think this is a system that certainly
worked very well in the past but has some limitations now.
However, I cant think of a system that would work better. The staff are
the ones who know what kind of technical ability prospective staff
members have. They also (hopefully) have some idea of who they might
want to work with. Now, I dont really know what any staff members think
about re-adding cross/spooked back to staff. But I know that my own
first gut reaction when someone gives me an ultimatums is pretty much
exactly like what jade describes in resp:219 . They really make me not
want to have anything to do with the person anymore and that is
ESPECIALLY so if I think the ultimatum isnt true (i.e. that the person
giving the ultimatum doesnt really mean it).
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rcurl
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response 223 of 480:
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Dec 12 22:07 UTC 2006 |
I vote to return cross and spooked to staff. Yes, I know I have no vote on
this, but I want to express my belief that this would be good for Grex. I
presume that they WOULD communiate with staff about any changes they plan
to make to implement spam blocking, or whatever.
There is no provision in the bylaws for electronic meetings or voting by
the board. This might be desirable to permit. The board can, however, call
a special meeting with the priviso
"The time, place, and agenda of each BOD meeting shall be publicized one
week in advance of the meeting, or as soon thereafter as feasible."
(The antecedent to "thereafter" is not clear, but it would be Grexian to
be "the meeting".)
So, Please Board, do this. Now.
And also, Please Mic, hold off on your ultimatum.
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tod
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response 224 of 480:
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Dec 12 22:13 UTC 2006 |
This item reads like a cross between a Scientology audit and a Freemason
tracing board.
"I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that."
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spooked
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response 225 of 480:
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Dec 12 22:46 UTC 2006 |
As I feel board does not want me on staff, and I have heard nothing from
staff (just as I expected because they are strictly politically-anal), I
feel I will be leaving Grex very shortly.
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keesan
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response 226 of 480:
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Dec 12 22:57 UTC 2006 |
What gives you the impression the board members don't want you on staff?
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tod
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response 227 of 480:
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Dec 12 23:04 UTC 2006 |
*sound of crickets*
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slynne
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response 228 of 480:
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Dec 12 23:19 UTC 2006 |
resp:223 - well, you can always request a member vote to force Grex to
put cross and spooked on the staff if you want to.
resp:225 - As a board member, I dont really have an opinion about if
spooked or cross should be on staff. If the current staff were to
recommend either one of them, I would have no reservations about giving
my approval to the deal.
On the other hand, I can kind of see why the current staff might have a
problem with them. While I think that both of them probably can do good
things for Grex to the point where I have brought it up at a board
meeting, I can honestly see why the current staff might not want to
work with them. If I were on staff, I would have no trouble working
with them but I am not on staff.
As a board member, I am not inclined to force the current staff to
accept people they dont want to accept. There are a lot of reasons why
I dont think it is a good idea to step on the current staff's toes but
frankly, one of the major reasons is that I think that it is prudent to
stick with the staff members who DONT quit because they are the ones
who...well...DONT quit.
I would urge the current staff to consider them, of course.
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tod
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response 229 of 480:
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Dec 12 23:23 UTC 2006 |
I would encourage the staff to keep doing what its been doing: Nothing.
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spooked
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response 230 of 480:
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Dec 12 23:23 UTC 2006 |
Grex's 2006 Board members are:
Mark Conger (aruba) (treasurer)
S. Lynne Fremont (slynne) (secretary)
Joe Gelinas (gelinas)
Bruce Howard (bhoward)
Lawrence Kestenbaum (polygon) (president)
John Remmers (remmers)
Jan Wolter (janc)
o Have not heard from ---aruba--- on this matter.
o ---slynne--- obviously thinks I am foxing and have selfish motives.
o Have not heard from ---gelinas--- on this matter (though he IS a staff
member also).
o Have not heard from ---bhoward--- on this matter (though he IS a staff
member also).
o Not sure if polygon's weighted in on this matter.
o ---remmers--- has privately stated he regrets supporting my
re-instatement offer to staff (and he IS a staff member).
o Have not heard from ---janc--- on this matter (though he IS a staff
member also).
Considering OVER half of the current board are also staff members, it is
clear to me that both parties are taking pleasure is seeing me go.
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spooked
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response 231 of 480:
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Dec 12 23:25 UTC 2006 |
Haha Tod, they need no encouragment for that :)
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tod
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response 232 of 480:
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Dec 12 23:26 UTC 2006 |
You're giving yourself too much credit. I think they just aren't even around
as much as you are. Its too bad really cuz staff could use people who
actually want to do some patching but I understand that nobody wants to feel
the wrath of STeve or marcus when its possible they might have to face them
at a Grexwalk for the ultimate haki sack showdown or something.
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cyklone
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response 233 of 480:
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Dec 12 23:28 UTC 2006 |
lol
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remmers
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response 234 of 480:
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Dec 12 23:30 UTC 2006 |
Todd doesn't know what he's talking about.
Progress can be made toward a staff appointment in the absence of a
board meeting. That process is underway for Mic. The way it works is
that staff discusses an application, makes a recommendation to the
board, and then the board either approves or rejects it. There's
precedent for doing it all in email if the board isn't going to be
meeting soon, with the board reaching an informal concensus in email
following the staff's recommendation, the staff then moving ahead,
with the board ratifying the decision publicly at their next meeting.
I'm a board and staff member. Generally speaking, there are good
reasons for discussing personnel issues in private, and for not
expecting non-technical bodies to make unaided decisions on
appointments to positions that require technical skills. But since
Mic and Dan have elected to raise the issue of their staff status in
the public arena, I guess I'll weigh in publicly with my perspective
too.
First, although staff members don't comment in this conference as much
as they used to (I wish they were more visible), that doesn't mean
they're not doing anything. Steve Andre has a pretty busy life,
but when something comes up that needs attention and about which he's
knowledgable, he's there, and he acts. The recent problem with the
DOS attack launched from Grex required some work and interaction with
the company that hosts us -- he was there, he did it, although it was
somewhat behind the scenes. Same for Jan -- he's got an extremely
busy family and work life, but he's there for Grex when he's needed.
Mic made a substantial contribution to Grex - he wrote the "menu"
program under my supervision a few years ago. He did a nice job. I'm
not sure what he's done since. I thought he showed poor judgement and
people skills in the incident that led to his recent resignation but
was sorry to see him go. When he asked staff for reinstatement a
couple of weeks ago, mentioning a project he'd like to work on (not
spam control, by the way), I was supportive and started an email
thread among staff to discuss it. A few staff people responded and I
was waiting to hear from more. Mic sent me mail a couple of days ago
asking how things were going; I responded that I'd try to hurry it
along.
But a short time later I read his resp:171 in this item, and the
statement "I want to change the poor/apathetic/slack culture of Grex
staff" gave me pause, not because I think staff is perfect but because
it's red flag when someone who's asking to be part of a team to
publicly bad-mouth the people they're going to be working with. As I
watched his rhetoric escalate, my misgivings increased. Anne pretty
well sums up my own feelings in #219 and #220.
And speaking as someone who *does* know something about computing,
Unix, programming, etc. - I'm a little skeptical about Mic's claim
that he can make giant strides in the spam control area, when it's
pretty much an unsolved problem worldwide. I'm with McNally on that
one -- what's stopping you from discussing your ideas if you've really
got the good of Grex at heart? After all, spam control on Grex is
what this item started out to be about - an open forum on how to
approach Grex's spam problem. I'd love to see more ideas aired here.
I'm also in agreement with Anne's comments regarding Dan and will go
even farther. He's got some solid technical skills that would be
useful to Grex. He's also got a temper, a thin skin, takes things way
too personally, and has real trouble handling disagreements. He's
resigned from staff twice over things that didn't even involve other
staff members. He exaggerates the importance of certain technical
decisions that didn't go his way in an effort to gain political
traction in the public arena, such as the choice of operating system
platform. Okay, FreeBSD might be better for Grex than OpenBSD. But
not *that* much better. If Grex were to switch from OpenBSD to
FreeBSD tomorrow, 99.9% OF THE USERS WOULDN'T NOTICE ANY DIFFERENCE -
IT'S NOT THAT BIG A DEAL. Same for the password algorithm. But Dan
dramatizes these things as if they were life-and-death issues. He
airs his issues with the Grex staff not only on Grex but elsewhere as
well. (Like his recent "Grex needs an enema" item on M-Net, among
other things) It's hard to justify looking at someone whose technical
skills are a good match to a technical staff and say that they're not
suitable for that staff, but that's about where I am with Dan right
now. Too volatile, too high-maintenance, too intolerant of
disagreement, seemingly unable to work as part of a team.
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spooked
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response 235 of 480:
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Dec 12 23:51 UTC 2006 |
Goodbye -- I am so not in agreement with remmers, particularly about what
contribution I have made to Grex (but more so his unfair appraisal of Dan)
and his way too kind account of STeve that it would not even be worth
responding.
So long - enjoy your productivity and lies.
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tod
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response 236 of 480:
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Dec 13 00:01 UTC 2006 |
re #234
Todd doesn't know what he's talking about.
More than you'd like to admit, actually. The peanut gallery lights up like
xmas when someone on the board sends out an alert on the batphone. It was
completely transparent when Marcus appeared out of nowhere to defend a piece
of code (as you put it) 99.9% OF THE USERS WOULDN'T NOTICE ANY DIFFERENCE -
IT'S NOT THAT BIG A DEAL. Sure, maybe it isn't about haki sack in the Arb
but I'm sure you can know this "sense" of loyalty I'm speaking of. Nobody
dare second guess a "founder" of Grex else the xmas lights come on and the
coop cf filleth up with hot air quicker than Orville Reddenbacher can get his
bowtie off.
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naftee
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response 237 of 480:
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Dec 13 00:59 UTC 2006 |
so much for "slow, thoughtful, careful decision-making" when there's nobody
around to hold a real discussion.
i can't believe that you guys (remmers and steVE) can't seem to grasp that
this GreX fundamental principle simply doesn't work with just two people.
it makes you guys look like dictators when you talk like that.
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cross
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response 238 of 480:
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Dec 13 01:03 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #219; I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Regarding #228; The same could be said of some of the present staff members.
Regarding #236; *Shrug* Hey, it's grex's choice. If grex doesn't want the
help, I can't force it to accept it. Obviously, I think your assessment of
me is flawed.
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