response 201 of 561:

Jul 18 00:32 UTC 1996

I think that I'd have to agree, unless ther is other information that I'm not
privvy to . . . 

response 203 of 561:

Jul 18 02:19 UTC 1996

Yeah, the can't commit, because he might sell the building to a really nasty
person, is just way too bi gof a red flag to me.  Can't commit at all is a
big red flag, but that about cinches it.  It's precicely in the case of "sells
to somebody who wants us out" that we need a lease.  contrary to what he said,
a lease would be legally binding on whoevre bought the building.

response 205 of 561:

Jul 18 04:13 UTC 1996

Did the Huron landlord elaborate on why he's booting the company currently
using the $60/month space for storage?  I think STeve said, at the meeting,
that it was because he had intended to rent it to that person for only a
while, but if he's getting the same rent either way, I'd think a storage
room would be an easier tenant to have than Grex.  (Ditto on red flags, btw).

response 207 of 561:

Jul 18 05:47 UTC 1996

The drawbacks to the Red Cross, as I understand them, are that we could not
keep our 761 numbers, only some of the staff would have 24 hour access, and
they would not be making any long term legal committment to us.  I'm not
convinced that we need to be able to give keys to the whole staff, since
several of our staffers never go to the Dungeon anyway, so that doesn't
concern me all tha tmuch.  Losing our 761 numbers bothers me, since we've
spent so many years publicizing them, but if we have to we will have to.  It
does worry me if we end up going into the Red Cross without soem commitment,
in writing from them, that they will let us stay for some reasonably long
period of time.  It's been suggested that it's not needed, and that we can't
fairly demand something like that from somebody giving us free space, but I
think we do need that to protect ourselves.

response 209 of 561:

Jul 18 08:39 UTC 1996

while the red cross space includes all the 'right ideas,' if we can't
stuff a 10# b0x into a 1#bag ...it's not a good idea.

response 211 of 561:

Jul 18 16:09 UTC 1996

Yes, I'd be concerned about adding new machines to Grex if
we were in the Red Cross space, since I'm told (no, I haven't
seen it, but I trust the other person's judgment) that it's
barely big enough to hold Grex as it is now.  We've been
telling our users that we would add Usenet as soon as
possible, I'd hate to have to tell them "we can't have Usenet
because the room we moved into isn't big enough".
The Huron site, for all its faults, is plenty big.

response 213 of 561:

Jul 18 16:15 UTC 1996

Re #197: the smallest Red Cross space I know of is ca. 9x9, not "2-3 times"
smaller than ca. 11x11.

The observation that using the Red Cross space is "chance to build an
interesting working relationship with them", understates the opportunity
for Grex to fulfill one of its founding purposes, to provide a public service.
In this case it would be to assist the Red Cross with their computer
communications implementations.

The ARROW (amateur radio club) has had a station in the Red Cross building
for umpteen years, based upon some services rendered the Red Cross with
respect to emergency communications. I would expect that Grex would establish
a similar long term relation. Currently, the space that is available is
used just for storage, while there is plenty of other space in the building
for that storage to go.

response 215 of 561:

Jul 18 21:21 UTC 1996

Exactly.  If the Huron space offered us a written lease and
the Red Cross did not, I'd vote to move to the Huron space.
We'd take a huge risk by saying "we'll do stuff for you" to
the Red Cross without delineating what "stuff" meant.

response 217 of 561:

Jul 18 22:04 UTC 1996

My impression about the person currently using the Huron space is that
he was "just storing stuff there temporarily", and has no intention of
storing stuff there long-term.  I'd assume he'd consider us just
incentive to do some overdue spring cleaning and save some bucks, and
nothing more.  But that's just my impression.  It might be worth finding
out more, except the other landlord business doesn't sound worth it.

The Red Cross people were just as eager as we to have an understanding,
on paper, of what we'd each be expecting.  Web pages, & e-mail seemed to
be two things that we could readily do.  If it turned out they wanted
private conferences, I think we could work something out there too.  I
agree we should be up front about what we are; actually, what would make
sense is to describe worst-case recent problems, such as entertaining
the secret service, to avoid the "surprise" factor.  They did seem to
already be much closer to our philosophy than anybody else we've seen:
they clearly had an understanding of dealing with volunteer staff and
the occasional emergency, which was refreshing to see.  It looks to me
like the Arrow once had a radio shack setup in the space we'd most
likely be in; that means they probably visited more often, and were
noisier.  There is still a radio tower behind, as well as an emergency
generator, so I suspect they were more intrusive than we are ever likely
to be.

response 219 of 561:

Jul 19 01:09 UTC 1996

I wonder if the red cross would have some objection to content down the
road.  They are a public organizAtion with an agenda and since grex
doesnt censor views or content, there is the possibility of conflict
at some point in time.

response 221 of 561:

Jul 19 02:04 UTC 1996

I wrote a letter to the Red Cross after talking with one of their volunteers
on the phone. In that letter I specified what I thought we could offer them.
While I did not tell them that  those were thre *only* things we could do,
I did not hint that there were other things we could do.

I copied this letter to the board, but have not made it public.

In the letter, I mentioned the following services:
(1) provide free e-mail accounts
(2) HVCN offered to help by hosting a web page
(3) Grex volunteers would work with the Red Cross to devcelop these pages.

While we were talking, we also told them that we could remove their discarded
computer junk, and dispose of it. We left it open whether any of the proceeds
would go back to the ARCWC. They understood that it would not be more than
a few $100 that could be made from it, and didn't think it was a critical
factor. They were much more interested in the fact that we could help them
reclaim some of that space.

I never even hinted at private conferences. 

The room we looked at was almost 10x10, I didn't measure it, but it may have
been 9x9. It clearly would have held Grex. I think it will hold a number of
additional computers, but we may have to sacrifice the gigantic desk. Not 
sure about that.

I didn't see the W. Huron site, but now that I have heard the explanation for
the unwillingness to lease, I wouldn't want to touch it.

At the ARCWC, we discussed the need for an agreement. I guess you could call
it a lease, even though it would be rent-free. I think they will commit to
us for some period of time when we explain our reasons. I can get a copy
of a sample lease for donated space, I'm pretty sure.

response 223 of 561:

Jul 19 05:51 UTC 1996

I'm not sure of the legalities here, Steve. In a sale, the leases are
encumbrances on the property which pass to the new owner. In this case, 
though, we are not talking about a sale. The leases may not be legal. The
property could revert to the original owner. A lawyer would probably be able
to give a better opinion, but I can see the possibility that the lease would
have no strength in that situation. Legally, the landlord who signed the lease
did not have the power. (conceivably)