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Grex > Agora41 > #112: Why Americans ,in general, are so dumb in geography? | |
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jazz
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response 200 of 360:
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May 17 18:42 UTC 2002 |
Moreover, an excess of food in a food-producing country doesn't help
solve the infrastructure and delivery problems of another country ...
There's another fundamental problem here, that of carrying capacity.
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bhelliom
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response 201 of 360:
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May 17 18:59 UTC 2002 |
Hmm . . . was I just a little over the top, John? Must be the migraine.
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jmsaul
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response 202 of 360:
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May 17 22:14 UTC 2002 |
Actually, I thought you were right on.
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slynne
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response 203 of 360:
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May 17 23:41 UTC 2002 |
Besides, we *do* ship food to people all the time as well as providing other
kinds of aid. Simply giving starving people food doesnt solve the problem
anyway. "You can give a man a fish and he will eat for a day but you can teach
him to fish and he will eat for a lifetime" (Please, do not start a discussion
about overfishing)
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janc
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response 204 of 360:
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May 18 01:20 UTC 2002 |
At the height of the Roman Empire, about 25% of the world's
productivity was controlled from Rome. When the sun never set on the
British Empire, they controlled about as much. At the end of World War
Two, the US controlled 50% of the world's GNP, making it twice as
powerful in economic terms as any other government in human history.
That's fallen off a lot, but America still stands as the world's only
superpower. The bottom line is that in the last half century, one of
the world's youngest nations has been also been mind-boggling powerful.
I think most reasonable people would expect that so much power in such
inexperienced hands would lead to far worse abuses than have actually
occured. You'd expect at least twice as much abuse of power as under
the British, or the Romans. There certainly have been innumerable
disgraceful episodes, but I think fewer than I would expect. America
needs to keep working to get better, but I don't think many other
nations would do better in our shoes, and the vast majority would do
much, much, worse.
In this item, sarkhel has accused the US of (1) playing big brother and
meddling where it has no business, and (2) not solving all the world's
problems. His geography may be fine, but his logic isn't. You can't
have it both ways.
I don't think that most people from India can understand how absolutely
stupid a statement like "Kashmir belongs to India by right of history"
sounds to Americans. If statements like that impressed Americans, then
we'd have to dissolve the country, or at least subordinate the US
government to various Native American tribal councils (an amusing
thought, but not likely). One of the reasons that America has been a
relatively benign superpower is that, as a nation, we have no big
historical greivances. The kind of hatred that exists between the
Japanese and the Chinese, or Indians and Pakistanis, or Israelis and
Palistinians, or even the French and Germans is simply unknown to the
US. You boast that India inherits thousands of years of cultural
history. But remember, 95% of everything is crap. Along with the
wisdom, Insdia inherits a truck load of stupidity.
I doubt if there is a scrap of earth on the planet that hasn't been
possessed by at least two different peoples sometime in history.
Nobody has an undisputable historical claim to any land anywhere.
And it's worse than that. Mathematical models of population genetics
show an interesting phenomenon. If you go back far enough in time, you
find that you can divide every person then living into two categories.
Either they have no 21st century descendants, or every single living
human being on the planet is descended from them. This makes sense if
think about it. Whats surprising is that you don't really have to go
back very far. Nobody knows exactly how far, but we are talking
thousands of years, not tens of thousands.
So in a sense, I've got as good a claim to Kashmir as sarkhel does.
After all, some of my ancestors used to live there too. Most likely
some of my ancestors were among the first humans ever to live in
Kashmir, but if not, then nobody else is descended from them either.
Of course, some of sarkhel's ancestors were among the original settlers
of Iceland, so he may want to lay a claim to that. It's a much nicer
place than Kashmir anyway.
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bdh3
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response 205 of 360:
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May 18 06:59 UTC 2002 |
Nicer? Only if you like the cold. Personally, I'd take Kashmir.
But you are right on about everything else. (Besides, the indian
peoples were savages before the brits taught them about sanitation,
railroads, and the benefits of a common language.)
Back to the original item. Americans are in general very
ignorant about geography. Foreigners may know more about
the USA than natives of the USA know about any particular
foreign country. But thats because there are far more of
them than there are of us. I would suggest that any particular
citizen of a particular country is far more likely to know
more about the USA geography ways than vis-versa. I would
also suggest that any particular citizen of any other country
is no less ignorant about the geography of any other particular
country other than the US than any citizen of the US. I
would also suggest that because of its near universal literacy
and free press your average citizen of the US is more likely
to have a knowlege of other cultures that is far more accurate
(limited as it may be) than other country's citizens have
of the culture of the US (such that it exists).
It comes equally a shock to a native of rural Szechuan, China
and a native of rural Mississippi, USA that not only do they both
have a fondness for boiled raw peanuts, but that their recipe
for preparation is exactly the same. (Peanut Butter on the
other hand is unique to the USA and has only spread worldwide
in the last century or so.)
Ask a citizen of the PRC to point out where the Spratly Islands
are. They will all know what it is and its importance but
they will be shocked to find out where it is.
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oval
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response 206 of 360:
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May 18 07:29 UTC 2002 |
"Foreigners may know more about the USA than natives of the USA know about
any particular foreign country. But thats because there are far more of them
than there are of us."
LOL!!!!
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bdh3
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response 207 of 360:
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May 18 09:12 UTC 2002 |
Do you know the name for the northwest province of china?
I do, and I can say the mandarin name somewhat understandably.
And I understand its significance. (Hint, it begins with X).
Does yer average resident of the PRC know the difference
between North Dakota and South Dakota and the significance
and meaning of 'Dakota' (few citizens of the USA would know
the latter but thats not the point). I don't think so.
(sidebar, if proposed legislation of California were to become
law at a national level both states would have to change their
name.)
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other
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response 208 of 360:
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May 18 17:04 UTC 2002 |
Which proposed law, and why?
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sarkhel
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response 209 of 360:
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May 18 21:45 UTC 2002 |
Dear all, I am shocked to read that any one here able to justify the "wastage
of food". US never shipped food to any country without its own interest.It
says democracy but they are not supporting any democratic nation.Look into
the best friends of US, its includes Pakistan,China (even in presidents
election PRC used to extend help with money to some candidate), middle east
countries, Russia,and so on.
US history says there was no voting power for woman for several years, US
history says the conditions of blacks few years back. Even during olympics
medal distribution ceremony the the hands with black gloves were raised in
protest by black players.
Yes US is super power now but please do not forget that the sun at the mid
sky also sets.If US going on following their "interest only" tactic it may
be very soon.Why US is bothering and putting its nose into Kashmir, it
surprises us. Also instead of supporting a democratic country why it is
extending their support to non democratic and communist countries, also
surprises us. The citizens of US may not have a feelings about this but when
a "SUPER POWER" helping non deemocratic forces it does affect democracy loving
people.US suddenly becomes concern about terrorism only after SEptember 11.
Why? Do you want to believe us that terrorism starts on September 11? Was not
these very groups were supported and helped by US prior to that day? Does
super power means supressing others? Can you imagine the condition of India?
How long we are fightong against terrorism? India is surrounded by Pakistan
( a dictator), China ( communist), Bangladesh ( unstable political
condition),Afganistan ( no need to say anything),Nepal ( a kingdom), Burma
( apro communist and dictator ), Sri Lanka (unstable condition for several
years).And all the countries are being supported by our "Super Power" except
the ONLY democratic country in this region , India. Will my SUPER POWERED
friends , please tell me the reason behind it other than cheap interest?
I feel the reason is behind the poor or no knowledge about the outer world
of US citizens, till September 11.They not only do not they do not want to
know also, because they are super power.Only they do have the right to decide
the future of the any and every country, how much they should eat and sleep
and what will be their geographical boundary and rest of the world and the
people are good for nothing and have no right to think.
Mr Jan if your Kashmir theory of origin is being applied , all the world
should be claimed by Africa.But thats not the point.My point is why the hell
you have to do with Kashmir and by supporting a non democratic country by
providing all modern arms, and which are being supplied to the terrorists to
attack India.
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other
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response 210 of 360:
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May 18 22:29 UTC 2002 |
The U.S. Government's foreign policies favor, in order of priority:
1) perceived U.S. military security
2) perceived U.S economic security
3) a lot of other stuff, including the personal interests of the people
who make up the elected government of the U.S.
4) the principles of freedom and democracy.
Our constitution institutionalizes those values within the U.S., but says
nothing about how we should conduct our foreign affairs.
Most of the U.S. population doesn't know or care enough about what
happens in the rest of the world to bother trying to figure out how to
raise 4) to a higher priority without compromising 1) and 2). The
politicians who comprise the U.S. government know that, and they act
accordingly.
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other
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response 211 of 360:
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May 18 22:31 UTC 2002 |
One factor in all this is that the U.S. has to appear to be taking moral
positions in international conflicts that people actually notice in order
to preserve its negotiating position in situations which could affect its
perceived military or economic security. Of course the exact nature of
those "moral" positions is highly subjective.
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jp2
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response 212 of 360:
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May 18 22:34 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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oval
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response 213 of 360:
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May 18 22:58 UTC 2002 |
sarkhel: the US will not support anything it does not have a financial
interest or political pressure by people with loads of money. our democracy
is based on capitalism which will never put human rights above money and
power.
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senna
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response 214 of 360:
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May 18 23:08 UTC 2002 |
Remind me again what our interest was in Somolia? I guess I've
forgotten, but it's a classic example of why just shipping people food
won't work.
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avin
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response 215 of 360:
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May 19 00:39 UTC 2002 |
re : 213, I thnk it's the classical :"human rights violation" theory that is
advanced in support of Kashmir. Kasmir can never survive by alone ..there is
almost no industry , it is rugged and tourism had always been the primary
source of livelihood here. So what seems to be the motive in terms of money
or power as far as the US is concerned ...I really don't get this!
perhps sarkhel is right in #209. It's the very US foriegn policy that has
abetted Pakistan's rise..and to what gains? Afghnas and pakis (terrorists)
has worked hand in hand to create a sustained violence level in Kashmir.
Incidentally, this allinace has created very deadly combinations in the
terrorist history. Americans must understand this and should never allow Sept
11 to go down in history ...
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gelinas
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response 216 of 360:
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May 19 03:08 UTC 2002 |
"Dakota" is the Sioux's name for themselves. NB: Apparently, most tribes
pronounced "Lakota", but some used /d/. I don't speak the language, and
haven't even looked into, but I wonder if it might be an 'internal stop', with
no significant difference, like the /l/ and /r/ in Japanese discussed
elsewhere.
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janc
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response 217 of 360:
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May 19 03:55 UTC 2002 |
Yup, most of America's foreign policy is aimed simply at serving
America's interests. I don't consider that a problem. What I consider
a problem is that it is short-sighted and ignorant, and so generally
ends up doing more harm to American interests than good.
Ever since America stepped onto the world stage as a superpower, it has
defined the enemy as "communism". Any government abroad that started
nationalizing the overseas properties of American corporations was
defined as an enemy. Anyone in those countries would was opposed to
those forces was an ally. Most of these people were dictators. The
problem was that if you put things up to a vote in a poor country, then
the people will vote to take the wealth from the very rich, be it the
local aristocracy or the foreign corporations, and spread it around
among the people. But that's the red devil communism! So America has
always opposed democracy in poor nations, backing instead the local
oligarchs and dictators. We've contributed handsomely to making a mess
of most of the third world. And the mess splashes on us with great
regularity.
This nation should have had a little more confidence in it's core
ideals. Democracy and free markets are good ideas and work better than
the alternatives. Have faith that countries that chose communism will
change their minds in good time. I'd say that the prospects for a sound
democracy are better in say, Cuba, are a lot better than most Central
American countries. Cuba is dirt poor, but at least the traditional
aristocracy no longer controls everything. You can't have a democracy
when all the power is in the hands of a few people. One of the
necessary steps to start a democracy in such a country is to trim back
the power of the old rich, that is, communism may be a pretty good step
to democracy.
America has consistantly failed to live up to it's own ideals. It's
foreign policy has been rotten.
But if some quirk of fate had awarded India 50% of the world's GNP,
would they have done better? Hard to say. They'd have been too busy
obliterating all their historical enemies, starting with Pakistan, to
pay much attention to issues of ideology. This application of brute
power would have pissed of the rest of the world, starting a new world
war, after which India would no longer have been a superpower, and
nothing would have been accomplished.
America was able to become a superpower partly because nobody hated us.
There was no nation who thought that they'd probably be nuked into
oblivion if we rose to power. Having blundered around stupidly on the
world stage for half a century, we have begun to accumulate some hatred.
Sure, our reign is going to end some day.
But probably not someday soon. See, there's a problem. Who should
replace us? India? Plausible, and it would make sarkhel happy. How
about China? Also plausible, and it would not make sarkhel happy.
India would rather have America rule the world than China. China would
rather have America rule the world than India. So we have both India
and China backing us! How can we lose?
Well, when we get so stupid that India and China would rather work
together than have us run the show, then we lose. We might do it
someday, but we've a long way to go.
And I'm mildly optimistic that we might actually start getting better at
foreign policy. Communism is no longer this big black hole distorting
American political thought. We no longer are very afraid of it. Maybe
the US will actually start backing democray. Maybe we can be succeeded
by something like a world democracy, rather than by another superpower.
The human race can occusionally do unlikely good things.
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jmsaul
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response 218 of 360:
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May 19 04:02 UTC 2002 |
Re #214: I think our interest in Somalia was oil.
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janc
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response 219 of 360:
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May 19 04:15 UTC 2002 |
Oh, the US doesn't care one bit about Kashmir. India and Pakistan might
as well be at war over rules of cricket for all the US cares. The US
wanted to flatten Afghanistan, and bases in Pakistan were needed.
Pakistan cooperated, so we owe them some favors. The mere sight of the
US doing business with Pakistan is enough to get India pissed off with
the US. To India it is a betrayal. To the US it is the cost of making
an omelet. If the US really loved India a lot, we'd undermine our
effort to flatten Afghanistan by not basing planes in Pakistan, least
that destabilize the grudge between India and Pakistan. The US doesn't
love India that much. Secretly we think you and Pakistan should get
over it and get on with life.
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pthomas
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response 220 of 360:
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May 19 06:20 UTC 2002 |
218: Maybe, but as I recall none of the players in Somalia seriously
suggested cutting off the oil.
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jmsaul
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response 221 of 360:
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May 19 13:58 UTC 2002 |
Re #220: That's true, but I don't think it was about oil getting cut off.
I think one of the sides had cut a deal with an oil company, and
it was a good deal. I'm not sure where to look this up.
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jp2
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response 222 of 360:
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May 19 16:28 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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sarkhel
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response 223 of 360:
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May 19 20:41 UTC 2002 |
Re 217 and 213 I am really surprised to know that how the people of US want
to be super power, and love to control the whole world as super power, they
love to be called super power. And here the importance of cultural heritage
and rich history of civilization comes into picture. Let me explain-
You can find a difference of behaviour and approach between a person who
suddenly becomes rich by wining some lottery ( for US it's two world war) and
the person who is from a rich cultural and traditional back ground.The person
becomes suddenly rich, always he will try to prove himself as a rich one and
start shouting to every one, 'hey look at me and hear me. I am the master.
If you donot hear I will make you run". The same has happened to US.It gained
and became rich from two world wars.
If you look into the history of India, you will find that India never invade
any country. India's contribution to the world are many, rich religious
concepts, the concept of "0" and so one but not the concept of "SUPER
POWER".May be thats the reason why it was invaded and destroyed by Alexndar
to Muslim invaders.When India was at its peak, it never created any Vietnam
or Hirosima/ Nagasaki. It dislike the idea of "Super Power" rather it loves
the idea to become "Super in Culture and thoughts"
I feel that the US business houses are so strong thet they dictate the terms
of US Govt ( say Enron, all Arms manufacturing Cos. etc.) They able to do it
due to the ignorance of US people. US people can be compared with a caged
bird, well fed and well maitained, they are being asked to think according
to the convenience of the business groups or so called multi national
companies.Its because of the poor cultural and historical back ground of US.
The democracy is in the blood of Indians, even during the period of Kings
there was village level democracy and electionIt was there till the arrival
of British.Britishers destroyed it for their own benefits.And they able to
do it due to the arrival of Industrial revolution earlier at Britain than any
any other country.
So my dear "SUPER POWERED BOSSES" whether US support democracy or not, whether
US support India or not , Indians are for the democracy and India will be a
democratic nation forever.It has proven, inspite of all the surrounding
countries when failed to ensure the democracy, India's democracy survived.
It is n dependent on the wishes of US and not like the showman hsip democracy
like US, it is deep rooted and real democracy. We love democracy in real,
within and outside our country we support democracy.
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slynne
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response 224 of 360:
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May 19 20:47 UTC 2002 |
Uh-oh, I think sarkhel just called us "nouveau riche"
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