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Grex > Glb > #37: gay bashers in the news again (long -- 163 lines) |  |
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| 25 new of 404 responses total. |
other
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response 2 of 404:
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Oct 13 00:25 UTC 1998 |
there is nothing logical to say to this... so how about we crucify the perps
and see how they like it?
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senna
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response 3 of 404:
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Oct 13 00:58 UTC 1998 |
Hmm. Interesting.
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i
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response 4 of 404:
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Oct 13 01:16 UTC 1998 |
Gee. Makes the Klan seem kind & civilized by comparison.
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gypsi
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response 5 of 404:
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Oct 13 02:57 UTC 1998 |
Oh, god forbid someone assume something that wasn't true about the
guy he made a pass at. Nobody kills people that make a pass if
they're of the *opposite* sex. Sheesh. When are these
small-minded, insecure, cavemen going to become extinct?
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steve
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response 6 of 404:
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Oct 13 03:25 UTC 1998 |
What disgusts me about events like this is how amazingly rabid
white straight Americans seem to get at even the thought of any
kind of interpersonal interplay with a "gay" person.
This kind of reaction is not unusual, either. At the Ann Arbor
Film Festival this year, there was a fantastic documentary on this
kind of reaction, through interviews with about 5 prisoners doing
time for killing gay folks. Even in prison there wasn't any remorse
or regret at the thought of killing a gay person, after they'd made
some approach at them.
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rcurl
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response 7 of 404:
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Oct 13 03:35 UTC 1998 |
Gay men must be seen as an enormous threat to such males. Why? They
know they have a great deal to lose for murder - what can be so overwhelming
that they don't stop to think (of course, such murderers probably must often
not stop to think).
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eieio
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response 8 of 404:
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Oct 13 03:36 UTC 1998 |
After the incident on Jenny Jones, Jonathan Schmitz reportedly said "Now
everyone, even Grandma, is going to think I'm a homosexual."
Yeah? Well, now everyone, even grandma, thinks you're a murderer. To me, at
least, that sounds SO much worse.
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scg
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response 9 of 404:
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Oct 13 03:40 UTC 1998 |
This is certainly a horrible situation. I'm horrified at people doing this
sort of thing to somebody just because he was gay. I was also horrified by
the quote from one of the perpetrators' fathers, saying that this was being
blown out of proportion. At the same time, though, I've been listening to
politicians, from the President on down, siezing on this as a reason to call
for strengthening "hate crime" legislation, which they say is needed to
prevent this sort of thing, and while part of me supports the concept behind
that, I'm really not sure how much useful that will do. Would this situation
be any better if it had been a random act of violence? If you're the victim
of such an attack, do you really care if it's because you're gay, or black,
or just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Since the perps are already
being charged with first degree murder, which tends to have maximum sentences
of either life in prison or death, depending on the state, are additional laws
going to be a detterent when existing laws aren't? Or even if these laws
won't do much to actually stop people from doing this sort of thing, does the
symbolism involved make hate crime laws worth it anyway?
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senna
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response 10 of 404:
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Oct 13 06:47 UTC 1998 |
The parrot is still dead.
Smells of politics to me.
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remmers
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response 11 of 404:
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Oct 13 12:58 UTC 1998 |
A telling quote from the article: "Police have said robbery was the
primary motive for the attack."
Since when does robbery entail the kind of violence that was done here?
I think this tells us something about the attitude of the police.
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rcurl
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response 12 of 404:
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Oct 13 14:24 UTC 1998 |
Robbery often entails murder in order to silence witnesses. This wasn't
the case here, where the victim was left alive but in jeopardy. It was
an act of extreme cruelty. r
The advantage of hate-crime legislation is that the motive is sanctioned.
Motive is often in question in charging and sentencing.
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aruba
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response 13 of 404:
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Oct 13 15:48 UTC 1998 |
Like scg, I don't understand what "hate crime legislation" will do,
exactly. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the motive is
sanctioned", Rane, since a law can't make it illegal to hate someone. Is
there some legal concept of "admissibble motives", or something like that?
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toking
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response 14 of 404:
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Oct 13 19:25 UTC 1998 |
re #6:
What disgusts me about events like this is how amazingly rabid
white straight Americans seem to get at even the thought of any
kind of interpersonal interplay with a "gay" person.
I'm a straight white American, as a matter of fact, I'd guess that I'm
pretty much your average straight white American. I wouldn't do
something like this, and hey, I bet your average straight black American
wouldn't do this either...hmmm...I"d also be willing to bet that your
average straight purple dinosaur American wouldn't pull this kind of
shit either! What I want to know is why any statement like that had to
be made? One thing I don't get is why peoiple don't seem to realize that
superfiscal things like race have nothing to do woth something like
this! That some people are just down right evil, and that's why thing
like this happen.
Sorry,but "...how amazingly rabid white straight Americans seem to
get..." re4ally bugged me...I'll shut up now
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johnnie
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response 15 of 404:
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Oct 14 00:55 UTC 1998 |
I read an interesting study a while back where they interviewed a bunch
of guys to get their reactions to gay persons, etc, then had the
subjects watch homoerotic films while hooked up to devices that measured
their, mmm, excitement. There was a decided correlation between those
who expressed extreme hatred towards homosexuals and those who were
turned on by the films (that is, those who want to beat up gays for
being gay are the ones who got off on the gay films). So those such as
the murderers in the incident at hand are betraying more about
themselves then they realize...
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polygon
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response 16 of 404:
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Oct 14 01:26 UTC 1998 |
Re 15. This has been known for many years. Ask any mental health
professional.
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scg
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response 17 of 404:
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Oct 14 01:42 UTC 1998 |
Although, since these people are presumably already feeling quite threatened
by the situation, pointing that out to them probably won't help matters.
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other
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response 18 of 404:
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Oct 14 01:56 UTC 1998 |
"We hate most in others what we fear most in ourselves."
- i don't know...
This is one of those statements I have seen and felt to be more significantly
true the less one believes it to be...
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brown
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response 19 of 404:
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Oct 14 02:37 UTC 1998 |
is it just me... or d'ya just have ta love this perfect world we
have...
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rcurl
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response 20 of 404:
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Oct 14 03:53 UTC 1998 |
It is not illegal to hate someone, but what I said was that motive is
important in *charging and sentencing* - that is, after a crime has been
committed. There was a discussion of this, incidentally, on NPR today.
The person they interviewed pointed this out, and gave examples of where
hate-crime legislation greatly reduced "hate crimes" in some
jurisdictions. What the legislation does is provide another basis for
judging the crime. For example, if someone assaults someone else because
(say) the person bumped into them, the assault could be attributed in
court to "sudden flash of anger", or a misunderstanding, or too much
coffee, it is likely that the assailant (if only minor damage was caused)
would receive a moderately mild rebuke or sentence.. However if it can be
demonstrated by word or deed that the reason for the assault was the other
person's color, or religion, or sexual preference, then there is
established a purposeful motive, and the charge and punishment may be
higher.
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gypsi
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response 21 of 404:
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Oct 14 06:01 UTC 1998 |
Well, I like sleeping with men, but watching a woman and man in a
porno doesn't turn me on in the slightest. Therefore, I don't hold
much confidence in that study.
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jep
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response 22 of 404:
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Oct 14 13:54 UTC 1998 |
#15 seems to associate homosexual tendencies with violent behavior.
#20: "Hate crimes" is a hot button tag, nothing more. To me, the
seriousness of #0 is that a young man was killed. The people who did it
committed murder. It makes no difference to me at all that they did it
as a "hate crime". If they did it to protest bad roads, as a school
project, or to promote the fertilization needs of nearly extinct
flowers, it's still murder.
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brighn
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response 23 of 404:
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Oct 14 15:21 UTC 1998 |
#21> The study is based on physiological responses, not (consciously)
psychological ones... that is, increased hormonal activity, respiration, etc.
We're generally poorly equipped to guage physiological arousal at these
levels... it's not an issue of what gets us wet or hard, necessarily, but
rather an issue of what gets our lower brains working.
In short, you may not be psychologically turned on by porno, but let's strap
you to a machine and see what it says (and it may well agree with you, but
it might not).
Also, it's also generally held in psychological circles that women are aroused
by text, men by pictures, so it's not entirely appropriate for a woman to
dismiss a study of male sexual reactions to stimuli based on her own
experiences.
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rcurl
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response 24 of 404:
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Oct 14 15:22 UTC 1998 |
Sure, it's still murder. It is also a hate crime. Protesting bad roads,
doing school projects, and fertilizing flowers do not perforce interfer
with the life, liberty or pursuit of happiness of others. Hate that is
acted upon does. Society should find ways to promote tolerance and
cooperation. It is certainly better than promoting hate.
That said, I would agree that it would be better to reduce hate through
education and (what used to be called) rearing. It is usually too late
to modify attitudes once they are established. Putting some barriers
against acting on those anti-social attitudes is still worthwhile, in
my opinion.
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albaugh
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response 25 of 404:
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Oct 14 17:13 UTC 1998 |
Re: #14: There are some that would hold that Barney *is* evil. But if they
killed Barney, as expoused in the usenet group, wouldn't they be guilty of
a hate crime, for singling out a purple dinosaur american? I think that we
should also protect Barney from this kind of discrimintory hate! And then
people with freckles, male pattern baldness, ...
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jazz
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response 26 of 404:
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Oct 14 19:01 UTC 1998 |
People who look like penii.
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