|
Grex > Scifi > #128: Compare and contrast: Honor Harrington and Miles Vorkosigan | |
|
| Author |
Message |
| 7 new of 8 responses total. |
drew
|
|
response 2 of 8:
|
May 2 20:19 UTC 2001 |
Solar sails?
|
dbratman
|
|
response 3 of 8:
|
May 2 21:26 UTC 2001 |
The most enthusiastic Honor Harrington fan of my acquaintance is
female - a loud and assertive one, to be sure, but not unusually so
among science-fiction fans. Certainly not a jock or a military type.
(And I've known a few female military officers: wouldn't be surprised
if they turned out to be Honor fans too.)
"a planet that had been fighting a guerilla war for generations to
break free of a military occupation by the Havenites is finally
liberated. And what does their new government do, first thing.
Petition Manticore asking if they can pretty please be annexed to their
country."
I haven't read the book, so I can't speak to this particular case, but
the general situation is not impossible. Texas broke free of Mexico
and immediately petitioned to join the U.S.: it stayed an independent
republic for 9 years or so only because the U.S. made it wait.
Admittedly there were special circumstances, but the point is, it's
possible.
|
dbratman
|
|
response 4 of 8:
|
May 3 00:55 UTC 2001 |
The following are not my words! They are those of my friend the female
Honor Harrington fan, to whom I showed resp:1 and who has these
comments:
"Weber decided quite intentionally to take the wet-navy tactics of the
Nelson era and put them into space. He doesn't have the
characterization skills of Forester or O'Brian, but if a reader can get
through the technical infodumps he's prone to and is willing to work
within this tactical context, she will go along for the death rides
because she cares about the fates of Honor and her comrades.
I have lots and lots of bones to pick with Weber's politics since I am
decidedly left of center and he's on the right. My personal peeve is
that he hasn't really shown anybody with liberal/progressive politics
in the Star Kingdom of Manticore that isn't venal and self-serving
at worst or ineffectual at best. The People's Republic of Haven seems
to be his extrapolation of how he thinks the left's policies can be the
ruination of a society. Weberphile fandom does seem to be rather
vocally right-wing when the discussions veer into RL politics, but
those of us on the left who like his stuff (and I know a few of us are
out there keeping solidarity with each other) pretty much have decided
to keep closeted with our personal beliefs in order to avoid
flamewars in the online discussions.
It's not entirely clear that some of the more admirable characters on
the Havenite side of the war will ever defect to the Manties, and it
could very well be the case in future books where they're on the side
of right and Honor's side isn't!
I'd say that the gender balance in Weber's readership is probably 70-30
in favor of testosterone, but I've managed to hook up online with a
network of women who love the stories (most of us self-identify as
feminists). The men in our fandom do seem to be more in love with the
techie details; the women are more interested in the personal
relationships, historical context, and politics, but it isn't a hard
and fast distinction.
What got me sucked into the series back in the mid-90s was the way Weber
managed to present women in combat in both the Manticoran and Havenite
forces in a very matter-of-fact manner, unlike the premise in say, the
Classic Star Trek universe, where women were quite decidedly excluded.
There's also a good tale of how a formerly isolated patriarchal and
polygynous culture is having to adapt to dealing with more egalitarian
cultures. When the story digresses into more femme tidbits, I'd say
that Weber probably could use some critical commentary from his female
readership.
As for the Manties being just way too good in this conflict, we've
reached a turning point in the series after book 9 where lots of the
ongoing plot lines have been resolved. There is absolutely
no guarantee that Manticore will continue to do everything right,
especially if the conflict widens to include two other major political
entities (the Solarian League and the Andermani Empire).
I play in both Bujold and Weber fandom, and there's a fairly large
crossover audience. I agree that Bujold is a far more well-rounded
writer than Weber is; she does a far better job of characterization,
and she's got the skills to play with various genre conventions (the
Regency genre in A Civil Campaign, mysteries in Komarr) while staying
within the Vorkosigan saga. I'd be absolutely delighted if David could
hone his writing skills by not falling prone to infodumps and
improving his characterizations. I think that's what he's going to
need to do to get the critical acclaim that Lois has gotten
(Hugos/Nebulas)."
|
blaise
|
|
response 5 of 8:
|
May 3 01:58 UTC 2001 |
I also found the San Martino situation quite believable. "We have been
fighting an occupying country for 30 years, and another country just freed
us. The country that was occupying us is still around, and could attack again
at any time. Do we try to stay alive by ourselves or do we ask our rescuers
to ally permanently with us?
"
I also agree with the lady who said that Weber needs to reduce the infodumps
and improve the characterization.
|
janc
|
|
response 6 of 8:
|
May 3 04:08 UTC 2001 |
Well, obviously I like the Honor books well enough to keep reading them.
Watching Honor fight her way out of a corner is always excellent fun.
Weber's politics frankly puzzle me. He seems to have a generic right-wing
contempt for all liberal ideas, except that he seems to be feminist and he
has a soft spot for monarchy. That's just weird enough that you'd expect a
fairly open mind to be behind ideas like that. Except that he seems unable
to conceive of anyone being liberal without being evil and corrupt. Politics
is all about the conflict of strongly held beliefs. A writer who can't see
more than one side of a question just isn't going to be able to say anything
interesting about politics.
That's right. I'd forgotten that he found a way in the last book to keep
Manticore from whumping Haven - he let the liberals take over the Manticore
government and do a bunch of stupid things.
You're also right that Grayson politics is just a bit more interesting than
Manticorian or Havonite politics. Partly Graysonites are divided over the
issue of feminism. Weber actually seems to be able to see both sides of
that issue enough to depict "good guys" on both sides of it (though they
all get grudgingly won over to Weber's side at a pretty steady rate).
|
anderyn
|
|
response 7 of 8:
|
May 4 01:25 UTC 2001 |
I've got a lot of friends who like Honor, but I've never managed to get past
Weber's writing skills (or lack thereof). I do adore the Vorkosigan books.
|
dbratman
|
|
response 8 of 8:
|
May 9 22:05 UTC 2001 |
As I find it quite impossible to imagine anyone to be conservative
without being evil and corrupt (a view for which U.S. politics of the
last decade, nay century, appears to me to provide ample
corroboration), it appears that I have done well to avoid David Weber.
Not to mention Michael Flynn and a whole bunch of other arch-
conservative sf writers.
|