response 197 of 241:

Aug 26 21:55 UTC 2003

If a child is old enough to learn right and wrong by pain he or she is
most certainly old enough to get the same message through language and
other non-violent means.  I feel real sorry for the two year old in
your care, Twila. 

Kids get hit because the hitting adults are out of ideas and smacking is
much easier than figuring out better parenting skills. 

Too, if hitting is so effective why does it have to be repeated, often,
and only stops when the child is big enough to hit back?

response 199 of 241:

Aug 26 23:06 UTC 2003

You do not beat children.
you do not hit children.

you may spank children.  

there is a difference.

response 201 of 241:

Aug 27 01:07 UTC 2003

I think spanking may have its place before children are old enough to be
talked to reasonably.  On the other hand, as I recall, what spanking taught
me as a kid is "getting caught hurts."  It wasn't until my parents started
explaining to me why what I did was bad that I started to feel guilty about
doing stuff that was wrong, which is a much better motivation against doing
things than fear of getting caught.

Cats have no sense of guilt, so the best you can hope for is to teach them
that getting caught doing something bad is painful. ;>

response 203 of 241:

Aug 27 02:10 UTC 2003

I think that what I am trying to say, for those of you who are missing my
point, is that at some times, and with some kids, spanking can be a tool in
discipline. I am not going to say it's effective with every kid, and I'm
certainly not going to say that it's what I'd do except in certain very
defined circumstances and my definition of spanking is a swat with my hand
on a child's butt -- not hard. Not enough to bruise, nor do anything except
get his or her attention. Kind of the equivalent of the squirting with water.
But it would only be with MY kid, for goodness's sake, and I'm not in the
kid-raising business anymore. 

As I have said before, I know the difference between being beaten (which I
WAS, as a child) and a spank. There's a world of difference between abuse and
discipline. I'm not advocating abuse. Ever. 

response 209 of 241:

Aug 27 23:58 UTC 2003

Todd sometimes manages to thoroughly surprise me.  :)

response 211 of 241:

Aug 28 01:09 UTC 2003

The only lesson I can think of where a smack might do some good is if 
you have a kid who is hitting others. Then *maybe* a smack on the hand 
to show them it hurts might be in order but only if telling them that 
it hurts doesnt work. FWIW, none of my friends who have kids have had 
any trouble telling their kids that it hurts others. The kids always 
understand that. 

I think verbal corrections are just as effective as physical ones. 
Sure, young kids dont always understand the reasons not to do something 
but if you simply tell them "that is not ok" and then redirect them to 
do something else e.g "Do this instead, it *is* ok" they usually 
respond very well. 

response 213 of 241:

Aug 28 13:55 UTC 2003

Re #181: I read an article yesterday about the Pink Pistols, and their
existance makes a bit more sense to me now.  Apparently, it's not that
they feel there's any particular connection between homosexuality and
guns; it's that they wanted to create a club for gun enthusiasts who,
because of their sexual orientation, wouldn't be welcome in the
conservative-leaning NRA.

response 215 of 241:

Aug 28 23:50 UTC 2003

Re #214: Apparently quite a bit, from what I've heard from conservative
politicians.  It's an important issue to the religious right, which is
sort of the rudder that steers the Republican party.

response 217 of 241:

Aug 29 05:23 UTC 2003

You may think it - but it is extremely clear that a virulent religious right
exists. They were out in force in MS over that religious monument. Some
others kill doctors that perform abortions. 

response 219 of 241:

Aug 29 05:41 UTC 2003

re216:  nice, you pull that quote out of an old reader's digest,
stinky?