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Grex > Agora56 > #84: Newspaper in Denmark prints cartoon pics of Mohammed | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 432 responses total. |
kingjon
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response 191 of 432:
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Feb 14 02:11 UTC 2006 |
I don't see it that way at all.
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keesan
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response 192 of 432:
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Feb 14 03:16 UTC 2006 |
Jon, why do you believe in God?
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nharmon
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response 193 of 432:
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Feb 14 03:22 UTC 2006 |
Because believing in God is easier than believing that moral, reasoning,
thinking people came from unthinking dead stuff.
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keesan
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response 194 of 432:
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Feb 14 03:26 UTC 2006 |
In which case where did God come from?
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nharmon
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response 195 of 432:
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Feb 14 03:28 UTC 2006 |
Who says god had to come from anything?
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marcvh
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response 196 of 432:
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Feb 14 04:05 UTC 2006 |
Why not try a belief system based on what beliefs are useful, or based on
what beliefs seem most likely to be true, rather than on what beliefs are
easiest? That seems kinda lazy.
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nharmon
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response 197 of 432:
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Feb 14 04:22 UTC 2006 |
Lazy or not, its the truth for many people.
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marcvh
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response 198 of 432:
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Feb 14 04:27 UTC 2006 |
So it's the epistemological version of sitting on a Lay-Z-Boy in your
underwear watching talk shows and eating Pop-Tarts. Awesome!
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scholar
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response 199 of 432:
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Feb 14 05:02 UTC 2006 |
Epistemology has to do with truth belief, not just belief.
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rcurl
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response 200 of 432:
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Feb 14 07:00 UTC 2006 |
In a recent book ("Breaking the Spell - Religion as a Natural Phenomenon")
Daniel C. Dennett suggests that ideas of gods arose in humans because of
the appearance by evolution of what is called "theory of mind". This is
the awareness in humans that other humans are aware, and they respond
accordingly. Thus, first having attributed awareness to others, it was an
easy step to attribute awareness to trees and rocks (Animism), which leads
to polytheism which leads to monotheism. Or, put the way a reviewer of the
book did, "theory of mind" lead to a "hyperactive agent detection device"
that not only alerts us to real dangers, but also generates false
positives, such as believing rocks and trees are imbuded with intentional
minds or spirits".
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fudge
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response 201 of 432:
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Feb 14 09:47 UTC 2006 |
Re # 95 who says we have to have been created by anything/anyone?
I fail to understand how people who feel the need for a supernatural creator
to "explain" reality are quite happy to accept its existance without question.
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jadecat
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response 202 of 432:
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Feb 14 13:12 UTC 2006 |
resp:201 That last line, I disagree- there are a great many religious
people who DO question their beliefs from time to time. Some even find
that their answers lead them to still believe. I'm not saying if they're
right or wrong- merely they do go through the questioning process.
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jep
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response 203 of 432:
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Feb 14 13:19 UTC 2006 |
I only know one person who seems to have no religious doubts or moments
of doubt at all, who is old enough to have them.
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fudge
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response 204 of 432:
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Feb 14 13:32 UTC 2006 |
you can only doubt what you believe - I'm not in the business of believing.
at any rate my comment was not about believing or doubting but on the
shallowness of chosing to believe "because someone must have created all
this", without pausing to consider that something would have to have created
the creator, and if one can accept the fact that the phantomatic creator is
omnipotent, omnipresent and eternal then how hard would it have been to accept
a rational explanation in the first place and save ourselves millennia of
conflict, subjugation and manipulation??
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jadecat
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response 205 of 432:
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Feb 14 14:15 UTC 2006 |
I have no idea how to answer that- I'm not one of those that questioned
and found their answers in their original religious belief. I just know
that your statement about people not questioning wasn't entirely correct.
Religious folk question quite a bit- the answers they come up with are
just not the same ones you have.
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fudge
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response 206 of 432:
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Feb 14 14:24 UTC 2006 |
sorry but in most religions the foremost rule is not to question (dogma). I
find it unlikely that after being questioned, these could be confirmed, as
by definition they have no proof.
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kingjon
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response 207 of 432:
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Feb 14 14:27 UTC 2006 |
Re #192 (and others): I believe in God for the same reason you believe in me --
I've met him.
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fudge
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response 208 of 432:
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Feb 14 14:34 UTC 2006 |
only difference is that I could get hold of you, whack you 'round the head
and drag you over for someone else to see you... also "meeting" god under the
influence of drugs, alcohol, sex or apple pie does not count as proof,
although it takes less points out of your rationality evaluation.
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kingjon
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response 209 of 432:
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Feb 14 14:35 UTC 2006 |
Re #193,196: For me it would be *easier* to say that "God doesn't exist, this
all came from nothing" -- but that would be exactly the same thing as saying
"my parents don't exist." It would be lazy to deny God, or to come up with some
polytheistic or pantheistic system.
Re #206: Where'd you get that? In Christianity, at least, one must *believe*,
but questions are expected. (It's part of the "dogma" that not all questions
will have answers, and one is expected to keep on believing despite those, but
still.)
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kingjon
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response 210 of 432:
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Feb 14 14:38 UTC 2006 |
Re #208: That, according to the written records we have, actually happened to
at least one person, named Saul of Tarsus. It is also at least possible that
God chooses to avoid some people.
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jadecat
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response 211 of 432:
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Feb 14 14:56 UTC 2006 |
resp:206 Ah yes, the Dogma generally attempts to require a
non-questioning follower. However, what the rules are and what humans
actually do don't always correlate. Just because a person is told not to
question doesn't mean they won't. Some of the most devout believers are
also the ones that have the severest periods of doubt.
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marcvh
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response 212 of 432:
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Feb 14 17:20 UTC 2006 |
Re #209: I don't understand at all. Which of the following is the
easiest thing to do, and something which a lazy person would choose?
1) Building a house to live in from raw materials by yourself
2) Going shopping for a house, finding one that is right for you, buying
it and moving in
3) Continuing to live in your parents' house where you always have lived
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fudge
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response 213 of 432:
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Feb 14 17:25 UTC 2006 |
re #210: Saul (or "St. Paul") was the main player in the formation of the
Church. The gospel talks of enlightenment and revelation, I'm more inclined
to wheeler-dealer who saw a major opportunity and played it. [I apologise if
I'm confusing my Sauls]. And anyway what proof are you bringing by quoting
the 'gospels'?
re #211 dogmas such as the fact that JC was resurrected are central to
christianity, for exaple, and without believeing it them one is not a
christian. if one refutes them after due consideration is in effect refuting
the whole religion. if on the other hand one confirms his belief in it after
rational analisys, it can only mean a flawed reasoning, since by definition
the dogma has no substantiating evidence.
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kingjon
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response 214 of 432:
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Feb 14 17:44 UTC 2006 |
Re #212: Bad analogy. Which job would a lazy person be more likely to accept:
one that paid him to sit around, watch TV, eat junk food, and sleep, or one
that expected him to work very hard at something?
Re #213: You don't have your Sauls mixed up, but you have your books of the
Bible mixed up. St. Paul didn't appear until the "Acts of the Apostles", which
is *not* a gospel, and which *he did not write.* If you think he was a
"wheeler-dealer who saw an opportunity" -- that doesn't match any of our
records. That's as logical as saying that the Pope who ordered the Crusades was
a devout Muslim. I'm not "proving" anything -- but you mentioned being *forced*
to meet someone, which is what the surviving records of that time say happened
to this anti-Christian activist named Saul of Tarsus.
I also think you're making the mistake of assuming that belief and doubt --
even that belief and *questions* -- are incompatible. Besides, most "dogmas"
are statements about which there are three possible alternatives: belief (q),
disbelief (belief in ~q), and witholding-judgement (which is in itself a
belief), *none of which has sufficient evidence to "prove" its worth*.
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fudge
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response 215 of 432:
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Feb 14 18:01 UTC 2006 |
re 214: yep. I should have said new testament. you're quite right there. then
again none of the gospels are "contemporary" either... and while Saul
obviously did not write them, nor the other various versions of the story that
circulated at the time around the med and were refuted by the early church,
he took it upon himself to bring together the very diverse communities of
proto christians. this because of meeting god, according to his promotional
material, or by his own idea, which I find more credible. nonetheless bringing
this story as an example of someone who met god is just as pointless.
you say belief is compatible with doubt yet all religious texts and prayers
talk about "moment of doubt" as the antithesis to belief, which means knowing
within yourself that something is true, despite the lack of proof or
explanation. witholding judgement is what atheists do (by not jumping to
conclusions and saying "there is a god") and agnosticists do (by admitting
lack of knowledge of the not knowable, although the vague acceptance of a
deity is in a way contradictory to the absence of gnosis). gnostics go to the
other end and claim to know better, but that's just another delusion, unless
that is, you've been given the true knowledge. ;)
amen.
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