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Grex > Coop8 > #32: The Grex's Landlords item | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 269 responses total. |
adbarr
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response 175 of 269:
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May 23 05:31 UTC 1996 |
scg, if you read #169 carefully, you will find that the response from
Gregc misses the point, by several miles. Not directly on point of the
concepts in #169, but your "sharing" with the landlord begins before you
reach that locked door. Do you think you can do anything you please in
the Dungeon? Can you disregard the other occupants of the building as
you might have a whim to do? Can you prevent your landlord from access
to the building, including your "private' space? How about in the event
of emergency? Does the landlord have to watch the building burn, because
the fire is in a private space, and therefore is not subject to being
extinguished? Let's try something really radical: define "private".
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scg
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response 176 of 269:
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May 23 06:27 UTC 1996 |
No, the landlord doesn't have to watch the building burn without being able
to put the fire out. But the landlord also isn't going to be walking around
inside the Dungeon, where if somebody trips over a wire or accidentally bumps
a key on the keyboard Grex would go down. If we were sharing a room with some
other organization, any other organization, we would have to worry about that.
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adbarr
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response 177 of 269:
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May 23 12:09 UTC 1996 |
I thought you shared a basement. The room is in the basement? No? I thought
this was a home, with a resident landlord in the same structure? No? I thought
there was some common access? A driveway, sidewalk, or ? No? Grex has its
own electric meter? No? I never suggested the landlord slept next to the
Grex system in the same room. I suggested that there is sharing here,
despite the protestations so vehemently asserted. Wiggle if you want.
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gregc
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response 178 of 269:
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May 23 12:30 UTC 1996 |
And I still say that's "nonsense" Arnold.
Grex has no equipment in the driveway, or the common part of the basement.
Grex has all of it's property contained in a single locked room, of which
it is the legal tenent. The landlord has a key, but legally he can only
enter that room under very specific circumstances. Such as an emergency
or by calling us and requesting a meeting in the room. Now, of course,
that might not stop a landlord from *illegally* using his/her key to enter
our space, but that's an exception, and an exception that can be remidied
through legal means. "our space" is not the driveway or the rest of the
basement. "Our space" is a 78square foot room for which we are the designated
legal tenent. We do not share "our space" with anyone.
By your analogy, there's no difference between your landlord, who owns the
building your apartment is in and whose hall you pass through to get to your
door, and your roommate, who has a key and lives in the apartment. You
"share" the apartment with the roommate, not the landlord.
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gregc
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response 179 of 269:
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May 23 12:53 UTC 1996 |
I just went back and reread through some things.
Arnold, in #177 you said:
"No? I never suggested the landlord slept next to the
Grex system in the same room. I suggested that there is sharing here,
despite the protestations so vehemently asserted. Wiggle if you want."
No, you didn't *just* suggest that there is sharing here. In #169 you
implied that the current minimum necasary sharing of common spaces and
facilities with our landlord, was somehow on a par and equivalent to,
the sharing of our designated space with another organization.
Those 2 concepts are flatly NOT equivalent and that is what I was refering
to as "nonsense". You have taken 2 extremes, attached the same word to
the concepts and attempted to claim they are the same.
BTW, your comments in #173 are what I would have expected from aaron,
I expected better from you.
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janc
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response 180 of 269:
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May 23 17:15 UTC 1996 |
(Dunno if Arnold has ever seen the dungeon. It's a separate room in the
basement of the house, with a locked door. Access is down a stairway that
leads to a door in the back of the building. There is currently no way to
get to the rest of the house from the basement without going outdoors.
The back door and the stairs are shared with the other occupants of the
house. The dungeon space itself isn't, though, of course, the landlords
have keys.)
Basically, Grex has been a lousy deal for the landlords. The time and trouble
it has cost them is much more than our rent has paid for. This is their
fault, not ours since most of the time and trouble could have been avoided
if they hadn't screwed things up. But our chances of finding new landlords
who would be willing to take the trouble for so little rent aren't terribly
good.
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chelsea
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response 181 of 269:
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May 23 17:40 UTC 1996 |
I'd like to see us approach the landlords (both) and ask for
a meeting in which to discuss Grex's future lease. We know
we're going to have to have higher rent anywhere else. We know
it would cost us a whole lot to move. Add up those expenses
and plug them into what we could afford and try to tie it
into a long term (5 year) lease.
Maybe the relationship is so soured that this won't work. Or
maybe if we were paying real rent the situation could be salvaged.
The only way to know is to ask. But I really wouldn't bother
unless we're talking worth-their-while money.
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kerouac
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response 182 of 269:
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May 23 19:59 UTC 1996 |
maybe what grex needs is a sponsor. The local free net in d.c. is now
sponsored by the local public television station. The tv station provides
it space in exchange for having its call letters prominetly mentioned in
the login screen. Previous to that, it was sponsored by george
washington university.
Maybe grex could get space on the U of M campus in exchange for a closed
conf for some department or sponsorship of the login screen...
"Welcome to Grex, the Midnight Snack of Champions, proudly sponsored by
Earl's gas station and the University of Michigan"
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nephi
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response 183 of 269:
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May 23 22:34 UTC 1996 |
<nephi grins at kerouac>
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rickyb
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response 184 of 269:
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May 23 23:18 UTC 1996 |
#182: I had suggested such a relationship either with CAT in the Detroit
Edison Bldg (they're moving there in June or July), or with the
Hands On Museum and/or city of AA in the fire station (old home of
CAT). There could also be something in the service hall area at a
place like Arborland or something, but that's much less likely.
Perhaps the AA Observer could sponsor and provide space. They'd
sure appreciate volunteer help on their soon-to-be web site.
re Arnolds comment in #169...I tend to agree with him. "Sharing" space with
another system or organization doesn't have to be any less private than the
dungeon. One large office with two rooms provides the equivalent of two
dungeons with a common entrance. You enter the 'outer office', where there
might be books, a voice phone, perhaps a modest conference table, or maybe
an electronics workbench...and a couple of (lockable) storage cabinets. From
there you gain access to grex with a key and step into the dungeon, or you
gain access to mnet with a different key and step into...(oblivion;)
I have to agree with arnold that in the current location there is, apparently,
an adversarial relationship with a landlord who could care less about grex
as an entity. OTOH, two organizations with similar goals _should be_ much
less adversarial and might even evolve into genuine cooperation (NOT to be
read = merger!).
Obviously, the mood is against this idea, so I'm not pressing it here, just
trying to clear the air. Arnolds analogy is not nonsense...it makes good
sense. Just seems nobody wants to hear it.
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bruin
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response 185 of 269:
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May 24 00:22 UTC 1996 |
Also, maybe Grex can contact the Ecology Center regarding taking over their
old World Headquarters on Detroit Street, as they are moving to the former
Catholic Social Services home at 117 North Division next week.
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adbarr
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response 186 of 269:
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May 24 00:31 UTC 1996 |
Greg, I take back the invective. The "nonsense" comment did not sit well.
I really can't add much to what Richard just said. That is and was my
concept in #169 -- the point is you do share somethings with some people
now. Not that that means the other tenants and the landlord(s) are running
your system. Just be open to exploring the possibilities -- you can
state any conditions you wish, but don't forego opportunities. Things
go wrong when you are sharing with someone else, things go wrong when
you are alone. Problems happen.
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srw
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response 187 of 269:
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May 24 04:37 UTC 1996 |
While clearly there is a difference between sharing space like with a roommate
and sharing in a landlord relatinship, I really think sharing should not be
ruled out so quickly. To say we should not share the rent with M-Net because
we would be tempted to share more is nonsense. I guess I am repeating myself.
Sorry.
Rick, it's not clear what the mood is. There is disagreement here.
Disagreement is OK, as we will reason with each other and eventually a
decision will be made. It is not the case that _no_one_ wants to hear it.
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robh
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response 188 of 269:
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May 24 05:49 UTC 1996 |
Re 185 - I expect their old office space is too big/expensive
for our needs, but it's worth looking into.
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scg
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response 189 of 269:
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May 24 06:17 UTC 1996 |
I don't think it's fair at all to say that our landlord doesn't care about
Grex, or that this is an adversarial relationship. Yes, we've had some
disputes (to put it mildly) with one of the landlords, but the other landlord
has gone way beyond what he needed to do to help us stay in that space, at
rent that's hardly significant enough to be noticable, because he cares about
Grex having a place to live. When our being able to stay in that space has
seemed doubtful, he's even gone out looking for other cheap spaces for us.
Nick has done a lot for us, and I don't want to see us attacking him.
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rickyb
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response 190 of 269:
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May 24 14:24 UTC 1996 |
sorry, i didn't mean to attack him personally...but what to do about the
cieling height? the alternative route of egress? the fireproof door? These
are expensive fixes to remain in a space which has, at least, one adversarial
landlord. Is the cost worth the potential instability of the system?
another idea...anyone have contacts with the city or whomever is supposed to
be turning the old gas station on the corner of Washtenaw and E Stadium into
a "Visitors Information Center"? Perhaps one of the former grage bays could
become a long-term home for grex and could provide access to a wealth of
on-line information to visitors seeking such?
<rickyb envisions a "kiosk" terminal with security provided by whomever
staffs the visitors center, and free public access to grex and community
information sources on-line during hours an attendant is present.>
<not a bad trade for a little space, eh?>
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rcurl
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response 191 of 269:
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May 24 17:15 UTC 1996 |
Something like that had been brought up in connection with the idea
of having the system at the Hands On Museum. It would be an interesting
exhibit to have the system visible, with components labeled, and maybe
a recorded explanation - and with lights flashing (maybe add a few,
for effect... 8^}). People have a lot of interest in the Internet, but
few can see an Internet Site "in action".
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albaugh
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response 192 of 269:
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May 24 17:32 UTC 1996 |
Don't forget to have a couple of mag tape units madly spinning/stopping/...
And a card reader is always good for audible effect... ;-)
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adbarr
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response 193 of 269:
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May 26 00:02 UTC 1996 |
I was not referring to Nick, scg. I do recogize, from what I read here
that he is supportive. You have had incidents, many in number, from what
I have seen reported here of hostile activity on the part of persons
in residence, I assume with out proof, at the location. Scg, I am not
attacking anyone or any group here. You do not have to defend them, or it,
or him/her. I am merely suggesting the idea of considering alternatives.
Nothing more, or less.
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rickyb
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response 194 of 269:
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May 26 17:19 UTC 1996 |
well, I suggested CAT, Hands On Museum, AA City and the new Visitors Center
as possible "sponsors" who might have cause to offer space in exchange for
_something_ grex could offer. I also suggested putting in a wanted to rent
ad, and searching the regular commercial ads for possible space. Sooner or
later grex is going to move, no? Even at the NEW Center rents are at least
$100/mo. Below is a list of the lowest cost options I could find in this
mornings paper. Just food for thought...anyone interested, check 'em out:
From AA Snooze; Sunday 5/26:
Office Space for Rent
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Ann Arbor/E Eisenhower
Benz Bldg, ground floor.
Furnished Modern offices.
$220/mo no extra costs.
971-1000
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ART STUDIOS- SMALL OFFICES
Economical rents, congenial
ambiance.
995-5454
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CAMPUS - Sunny 1 room office
overlooking State St, only
$220/mo. 663-0501
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OFFICE SUBLET - 710 sq ft of
premium space - parking.
315 E. Eisenhower.
994-4053
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STUDIO/OFFICE
Downtown Ann Arbor, $175/MO
and up. Free utilities and
parking. 994-8791
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I drew the line at this rent level, but for $375/mo there is the following:
Shared services: window, free parking, receptionist, conference room,
utilities and secretary. 994-3904.
There are also large wearhouse spaces with offices attached. Maybe a deal
sub-letting the wearhouse and 1/2 of the office could cover the entire rent
and give grex a free space for the "expense" of being a 'resident manager'.
I just try to keep the wheels turning.
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janc
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response 195 of 269:
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May 27 03:49 UTC 1996 |
Things is we don't need "furnished", "ground floor", "ambiance", "sunny",
or "parking." (Though "free utilities" at $175 a month doesn't sound bad).
So in theory we ought to be able to to get a place much cheaper than these.
Only the kind of hole that we want mostly isn't advertized at all.
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adbarr
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response 196 of 269:
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May 27 14:48 UTC 1996 |
Then advertise your need.
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dpc
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response 197 of 269:
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May 27 18:19 UTC 1996 |
Wow--lots of discussion here! Where to begin? At the beginning, I guess.
Grex was formed when M-Net was owned by one person--Dave Parks.
The Grex pioneers wanted a system which had more broad-based control.
Shortly after Grex started, Parks sold M-Net to a new non-profit formed
to purchase it called Once and Future Systems (OAFS). Then, a short
time after that, OAFS merged with Arbornet. I was on the Board of
OAFS - how time flies when you're having fun!
Now I'm on the Board of Arbornet. Oh, well.
Anyway, my proposal was only that since both Grex and M-Net
*have* to move soon, we should see if some kind of sharing of facilities
is possible. Grex' present landlord(s) is/are an "accident waiting
to happen." Arbornet has to leave the NEW Center within a year.
I was thinking only of sharing the actual space. I hadn't
gotten around to thinking what else might be shared. I really doubt
that any type of "merger" would be possible because of the personalities
of the folks who run Grex and Arbornet now.
Let's just talk space, power, and phone access.
Both systems need somewhere with *reliable* electric power and
as close a connection as possible to an Internet service provider.
I don't know if these are major constraints.
Both systems need *cheap* space which is safe. Each needs a
space roughly 10 x 10.
So what's available that's 20 x 10, cheap, safe, and close
to the needed power/ISP?
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rcurl
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response 198 of 269:
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May 27 20:39 UTC 1996 |
Possible, but not serious drawbacks are:
Both systems would be on the same power circuit, so both go down together
with a power failure (but UPSs would fix that for short outages).
The perceived problem of "too much" interference: divide the room with an
iron curtain...er...wall.
Having that many phone lines to a single site: problem?
Complaints about the *other* system not keeping their area clean, free
of hazards, quiet, etc.
I think this is doable, and would be more economic for both systems.
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srw
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response 199 of 269:
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May 28 00:22 UTC 1996 |
I don't see any serious obstacles there.
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