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Grex > Coop8 > #19: What Should The Co-op Login Screen Say? |  |
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| 25 new of 280 responses total. |
steve
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response 175 of 280:
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Apr 1 00:46 UTC 1996 |
Mary is right.
Reminding someone something constantly has the opposite effect of
what was originally intended.
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scott
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response 176 of 280:
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Apr 1 01:44 UTC 1996 |
Mary is wrong.
Reminding someone something constantly *may* have the opposite effect, or
it may have the intended effect.
Everybody seemed to be doing fine with the current login, until the FW's
made some comments and that was interpreted as a chance to make a comment
about the login screen.
(Sorry, Mary. But I *do* like the login screen, and I think it may help.)
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ajax
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response 177 of 280:
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Apr 1 06:04 UTC 1996 |
Mary is undefined.
Reminding someone something constantly is undefined.
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dang
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response 178 of 280:
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Apr 1 06:40 UTC 1996 |
Would this imply that it's divided by zero?
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rcurl
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response 179 of 280:
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Apr 1 07:18 UTC 1996 |
Only if it is itself zero.
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tsty
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response 180 of 280:
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Apr 1 08:18 UTC 1996 |
... I've always wanted the definition of 0/0=1 to be true, but alak & alas...
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adbarr
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response 181 of 280:
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Apr 1 17:36 UTC 1996 |
Mary and STeve are both wrong. I want someone here to define the ideal login
screen etc. This all seems so incredibly personal to me. And we tend to use
a lot of time arguing/discussing what seems, to me (personally) not so
important. <unauthenticated/no shots/refused worm pills -- adbarr>
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chelsea
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response 182 of 280:
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Apr 2 00:20 UTC 1996 |
Sorry, but this issue has been spent. I stated my preferences, as
did others, and what happens now is not even worth more discussion.
This is not real life. ;-)
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adbarr
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response 183 of 280:
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Apr 2 05:07 UTC 1996 |
Agree. The horse is dead, or should be.
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rcurl
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response 184 of 280:
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Apr 2 06:26 UTC 1996 |
But the flies are not done yet......
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tsty
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response 185 of 280:
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Apr 2 08:46 UTC 1996 |
ummmmm, i'd really hesitate before afixing a "wrong" lable on an opinion
of preference; that seems to be much too strong as well as inaccurate.
chelsea and i fw'd coop together for a while and there were differences
which did get worked out albeit not instantaneously or "just one way."
I probably appreciated her "co-fw" efforts more than she mine, (maybe,
maybe not) but that situation, imo, was ultimately beneficial both
to us and this cf. I learned some "stuff" that i prolly wouldn't
have learned as soon or as nicely.
I am sorry that neither chelsea nor steve likes/appreciates/approves/whatever
the current login screen. I am.
But we don't think we stiff-armed anyone, or presented a false front, or
did a "make-believe" that this isn't a VeryImportantPlace on Grex. Also,
and particularily with the flowing currents onthe Internet combined
with a wide-open-newuser (an extreme and emminently valuable position/stance
for *any* system, anywhere <two in A2 in fact ... mind boggling, truly>),
having the principled statements available all the time (and just
a single keystroke away from disappearing) just does not seem to me
to be too much.
Fifteen lousy lines contrasted against multiple-hundreds of lines, perhaps
thousands, lighting the screens of active users as *well as the drop-in
reader who could be from anywhre, anytime, any reason* who simply sees
those 15 lines one time per lifetime (but not a 2nd).... just does not
balance our equation for a worthwhile saving of screen real estate or
the milliseconds of time needed to dump it off and get on with the
conference. If Grex were running at 50 or 75 baud (yes, i've been there)
for all logins, we would prolly tweak the login tighter. If Grex had
only a couple hundred fanatically active users instead ofthe several
thousand and no newusers were allowed, we'd prolly tweak the login a bit
tighter.
Neither burdensome situation exists; everyone who joins coop whether
the first or 500th time (per incantation) is familiar with the "look"
and "feel" of j (hmmm, was that an intended pun ????) and after some
initial readjustment (nephi and I did consider a necessary period
of readjustment for ourselves as well as others) as well as some
smoothing refinements, I believe we are satisfied that we have accomplished
a satisfactory greeting in the login, all things considered.
And we do appreciate the support in this conference, thank you, as users
acclimate, reflect and consider the change to be progressive enough
without being flamingly radical or heretical to the equitable response
criterion we believe is necessary for this conference on this system at
this time.
<this is almost a full keats of text so i better stop finger-frothing now>
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scott
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response 186 of 280:
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Apr 2 10:18 UTC 1996 |
(the "Mary is wrong" thing I wrote was a quick reaction to STeve's "Mary is
right" in the preceding item. I *don't* want to be saying I don't value
Mary's opinions.)
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chelsea
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response 187 of 280:
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Apr 2 11:57 UTC 1996 |
Oh, heavens, I understood, Scott.
No problem.
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steve
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response 188 of 280:
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Apr 2 17:57 UTC 1996 |
TS, I'll only say two things more about this. 1) The long winded
message at the front of coop is only going to be seen once by the
occaisional passer-by who visits once and never returns. Frequent
users of the conference get hit over the head with it every time
however, which isn't good. Putting the damed thing in the bulletin
would a) still be shown to the newcommer and b) stop offending those
who've seen it literally hundreds of times! (I'll also point out
that the people who wander by here is close to vanishingly small).
Point 2) being the deafening lack of response to the earlier
queries for how long you were going to sit there "in sponge mode",
and similar lack of response on other questions. If you doubt
this go back and read this item over again.
I think you've damaged this confernce, TS. You took it upon
yourself to "fix" something that wasn't broken. Your modifications
have bothered most of the longer term participants of this conference.
This new flavour of coop doesn't sit well with me, nor others. I'm
simply different in that I'm more vocal. But look at the participation
rate of this confernce, compared to the last incarnation. Less than
half. There are reasons for that.
...And the sad part is, given the lack of response of the two
of you, I don't know what else to to other than see how many others
might join up in a recall campaign. But thats bad for coop and Grex
overall, takes time and is unpleasent.
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ajax
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response 189 of 280:
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Apr 2 19:21 UTC 1996 |
I share some of STeve's views, but I don't think this issue or TS
have adversely affected co-op participatioon much at all. What is
meant by "participation rate?" If it's how many people have joined
co-op, then the people who haven't joined in this incarnation won't
have seen the login screen or this discussion, so that wouldn't
make sense.
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kerouac
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response 190 of 280:
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Apr 2 22:58 UTC 1996 |
why cant there be a command in the .cffile or .profile, that gives
users the option of having the login screens of each conf automatically
bypassed. Most people dont pay attention to the login screens after a
while anyway and I think their importance is overrated. So give users
a yes/no option on whether or not whey want to bypass the login screens
on all confs in their .cflist. The fw's could stick their names on the
exit screen instead.
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dang
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response 191 of 280:
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Apr 3 00:39 UTC 1996 |
That can't be done because Picospan is not set up to do it, and we don't
have access to the source.
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kerouac
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response 192 of 280:
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Apr 3 02:12 UTC 1996 |
I thought marcus wrote picospan...if he doesnt have access to the
source, who does?
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gregc
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response 193 of 280:
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Apr 3 06:09 UTC 1996 |
Kerouac, Picospan is a commercial product owned by Marcus. He has the
source, we don't. Marcus has more-or-less licensed us a free copy of
a Picospan runtime binary, but he's very tight with the source. Marcus
has the final say on that. If you want him to put a modification into
it, you're going to have to do 2 things:
1.) Convince him it's a worthwhile addition, and
2.) Find him the time to do the work.
(I'm not sure which of the above 2 things will be harder. :-) )
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mdw
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response 194 of 280:
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Apr 3 08:10 UTC 1996 |
(1) PicoSpan proper is designed with the idea of
"maximizing information flow efficiency" in mind. The default
prompts & separators put very little machine generated
information in, and most of the information presented is
hopefully "new" and "interesting" information requested by the
user. [the default prompts you see on grex are not a proper
reflection of this vision.]
(2) The right thing to put in the login message is (1)
what conference this is, & (2) perhaps who the fairwitnesses
are, and little more. Somebody earlier presented a login
message that fit this just fine.
Putting anything more in is a waste of time, for the same reason
that when people make buildings, they make the first floor lobby
much fancier than the upper floor office hallways. Visitors see
the first floor lobby & can go ooh-ah; office workers aren't
going to "see" anything, it's just routine visual noise that
gets tuned out of the visual matrix; and plain & simple is not
only cheaper, but helps people to concentrate on the important
stuff.
(3) PicoSpan provides a "linmsg" that can be used to
customize login appearance.
(4) I absolutely detest the current login screen. I've
said so before in this conference. I snarl everytime I see it.
It seems to me it irritates other poeple as much as me.
I don't know or care to understand the reasons the f-ws have for
ignoring my opinion, and those of others, but I do think it stinks.
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srw
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response 195 of 280:
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Apr 3 08:17 UTC 1996 |
I have said it before, but I'll say it again. It stinks. It's a waste of time
and space. It's completely wasted. It benefits no one. Not even new users,
who would see it in a bulletin. So there is no benefit, only waste.
I am puzzled why the f-ws are determined to carry on in the face of almost
universal opposition to their login screen. It is as if they are on a crusade.
Discussion of it detracts from the real business of coop, of course. But don't
expect discussion to go away until the login screen does. Why, because it
annoys people.
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janc
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response 196 of 280:
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Apr 3 08:26 UTC 1996 |
(Incidentally, since Marcus sold PicoSpan to NETI, he probably doesn't own
it. He was able to get it to Grex through Unicom which had an agreement
with NETI enabling it to sell PicoSpan. At this point, since NETI is
defunct, it would likely take some lawyerly head-scratching to figure out
who owns PicoSpan. It's not clear that Marcus *could* show the source to
anyone. And I'd be surprised if Marcus very much wanted to do much work on
it himself, since it's not clear if he could sell the improved code. This
is all pretty irrelevant, but I wanted to note that there are reasons other
than secretiveness for Marcus's treatment of PicoSpan source.)
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gregc
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response 197 of 280:
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Apr 3 11:12 UTC 1996 |
Yeah, I knew the gist of that. I just didn't want to go into all those
legal machinations.
I'll add to this that I also think the current FW's attitude towards
the login screen stinks. Their attitude towards our collective opinion
stinks. And their general ahndling of this issue and the whole conference
stinks.
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scott
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response 198 of 280:
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Apr 4 00:23 UTC 1996 |
The only think I don't like about the login screen is all the bitching that
is going on. That, more than the login screen, is making Coop an annoying
place to be.
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adbarr
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response 199 of 280:
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Apr 8 22:19 UTC 1996 |
I agree with Scott. At the risk of offending the entrenched powers, I see no
problem with the screen. Apparently, however reluctantly, we are developing
a set of rules about login screens, however misguided they may be. Decree
on -- we await thy pronouncements!
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