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| 25 new of 269 responses total. |
scott
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response 175 of 269:
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May 11 02:10 UTC 2002 |
Wasn't that actually an illegal gambling club?
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keesan
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response 176 of 269:
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May 11 12:29 UTC 2002 |
It sounds like both Jews and Arabs are causes of the population problem that
is the real root of the conflict, since they almost all seem to be having 3-6
children and 3 grandchildren per child. Fewer people would have enough space
to share (other than holy sites).
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jmsaul
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response 177 of 269:
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May 11 15:06 UTC 2002 |
For once I agree with you.
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lk
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response 178 of 269:
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May 11 19:07 UTC 2002 |
You can agree with a sentiment but that doesn't make it factually correct:
Birth rates (measured per 1000 people)
Country Rate
------- -----
Israel 19.12
Ireland 14.57
USA 14.2
Iraq 34.64
Jordan 25.44
Syria 30.64
Egypt 24.89
But consider that 20% of Israel's population is Arab and that the overall
birth statistics include this segment of the population (which has a much
higher birth rate). I don't think we can extrapolate the data from the
numbers but I think we can say with some certainty that the Jewish birth
rate is significantly lower than the Arab rate and that it isn't much more
than the birthrate in the USA.
[Source: CIA World Factbook 2001.]
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jmsaul
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response 179 of 269:
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May 11 19:14 UTC 2002 |
I wonder if it's the same in the cities as it is in the settlements.
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jp2
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response 180 of 269:
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May 11 20:33 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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jmsaul
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response 181 of 269:
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May 11 22:35 UTC 2002 |
Good call, but I think another factor is that they're being encouraged to out-
breed the Jewish population.
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lk
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response 182 of 269:
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May 12 00:57 UTC 2002 |
Perhaps I should have highlighted Total Fertility rate (children born
per woman), so let's look at that and literacy rates:
Country Fertility Literacy Male Female
------- --------- -------- ---- ------
Israel 2.57 95% 97% 93%
Ireland 1.9 98% NA NA
USA 2.06 97% 97% 97%
Egypt 3.07 51.4% 63.6% 38.8%
Iraq 4.75 58% 70.7% 45%
Jordan 3.29 86.6% 93.4% 79.4%
Syria 3.95 70.8% 85.7% 55.8%
Saudi Arabia 6.25 62.8% 71.5% 50.2%
World Avg 2.73 (Birth Rate 21.37 per 1000 women.)
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lk
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response 183 of 269:
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May 13 05:46 UTC 2002 |
OK, now that we've got that out of the way, let's get back to the item.
Jihad for children.
From the Weekly Standard:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/194lzmsh.
asp
"Believe me, there are children stationed in the houses with
explosive belts at their sides," Abu Jandal, a Jenin-based Islamic
Jihad lieutenant, told Al Jazeera television on April 4, while the
fighting was still underway. After the fact, Sheikh Abu Al-Hija,
Abu Jandal's Hammas counterpart in Jenin, proudly confirmed that
the camp's children had "filled their school bags with explosive
devices." And Jamal Huweil, chief of Jenin's Al Aksa Martyrs
Brigade, boasted to London's Al-Hayat newspaper that at least four
such children had rushed Israeli tanks and blown themselves up.
From the NY Daily News:
http://www.hughhewitt.com/past_news_links_04.02/04.10.02.Beyond_the_City.html
Thirteen Israeli soldiers were killed yesterday when they were
lured into an ambush by a baby suicide bomber, former Prime
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said last night.
"You know how they were killed?" he told Fox News Channel.
"A 10-year-old boy was strapped with explosives and sent by
[Palestinian leader Yasser] Arafat's goons to explode. This is
the kind of monstrosity we're dealing with."
I don't recall the source, but I've since heard discussion of two 14-year-old
suicide-bombers and it is possible that the initial age of this particular
child was estimated incorrectly.
The undeniable fact, however, is the use not so much of child soldiers but
of child suicide bombers.
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bdh3
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response 184 of 269:
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May 13 06:27 UTC 2002 |
Uh, yer supposed to say 'child murder bombers' now. Didn't
you get the memo?
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keesan
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response 185 of 269:
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May 13 13:58 UTC 2002 |
A ten year old is a 'baby'?
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klg
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response 186 of 269:
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May 13 15:02 UTC 2002 |
lk- Glad to see that you are now a regular reader of my favorite magazined:
The Weekly Standard. Can in interest you in a membership in the
Republican Jewish Coalition?
klg
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oval
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response 187 of 269:
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May 13 20:41 UTC 2002 |
the ny daily news is a great one too.
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lk
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response 188 of 269:
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May 14 04:33 UTC 2002 |
Sorry, klg, but I'm not a Republican.
Sindi, certainly a 10-year-old is not a "baby", but I hardly think
that someone that young, even 14, is capable of making an informed
decision to "volunteer" to blow-up themselves (while murdering others).
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slynne
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response 189 of 269:
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May 14 14:34 UTC 2002 |
I have to agree with Leeron on this one. It is really horrible when
people insist on dragging children into these types of conflicts and by
anyone's definition, a 10 year old is a child.
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oval
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response 190 of 269:
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May 14 20:34 UTC 2002 |
like the children aren't already involved.
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bru
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response 191 of 269:
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May 15 03:32 UTC 2002 |
And what is a 10 year old going to do with 72 virgins?
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lk
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response 192 of 269:
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May 15 05:24 UTC 2002 |
No, Bruce, the 10-year-olds they tell the truth, that it's not virgins
but white raisins. Or maybe they lie to them and tell them they'll give
them chocolate when they return from their mission.
Perhaps it doesn't come as a surprise, but at the UN commission for the
prevention of child-soldiers -- ironically held in Jordan (formerly
eastern Palestine) -- there was no discussion of this. Perhaps the UN
should establish a fact finding commission?
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other
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response 193 of 269:
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May 15 17:11 UTC 2002 |
When I was ten, I knew what I would like to have done with 72 virgins...
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lk
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response 194 of 269:
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May 16 01:14 UTC 2002 |
A segment of Palestinian society is starting to realize the cost of the
messages that it is sending its youth in the aftermath of the death of 3
boys, aged 15, who took it upon themselves to attack Jews. In recent months,
5 other teenagers (aged 14-17) had taken it upon themselves to do the same
and all were killed in the process. Yet even as their deaths raise troubling
questions, it is being used to propel others youhts to follow suit. I don't
know the social status of the previous 5, but these three were the top
students in their class and the father of one is a PA employee (the family
lived in what the Washington Post described as a "comfortable apartment").
Excerpts from an article that appeared on May 10th.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62959-2002May9.html
When 'Martyrs' Are Not Yet Men
Palestinans Fear Rise of Youth Suicide Culture
Posters glorifying their sacrifice appeared swiftly in Gaza City shop windows.
The hero status the boys had sought -- and claimed in letters left for their
families -- was conferred on them as it has been on scores of other young
Palestinians who have mounted suicidal attacks on Israeli settlers, soldiers
and civilians.
But for more than two weeks, the people and leaders of Gaza have also been
raising questions about the Palestinians' suicide attacks, their most potent
weapon against Israel -- and the most widely condemned around the world. Some
suicide attacks, they have concluded, surpass the limits of what is
acceptable, even for a people with its back against the wall.
The Islamic Resistance Movement, or Hamas, which has organized dozens of
bombings and other suicide attacks, and which claimed responsibility for
Tuesday's bombing south of Tel Aviv, condemned the three boys' gesture the
day after it happened. In a communique, it forbade any further attacks by
adolescents acting on their own. In cooperation with the Palestinian Authority
police and Preventive Security service, Hamas officials urged youths to turn
in any of their friends planning to become martyrs.
Hamas has not shown such compassion for the victims of its suicide bombings,
however, among them Israeli children struck down at pizza parlors and bus
stops.
The deaths of Anwar, Ismail and Yusef were distinguished from other
Palestinian suicide attacks by three things. First, the boys were barely old
enough to shave and, their elders contended, were not mature enough to make
a decision that amounted to a suicide pact. Second, their attack -- running
headlong toward the heavily guarded settlement with no real weaponry -- was
futile bravura, unlikely to inflict casualties on the enemy. And finally,
according to their parents, the three had decided on their own to rush the
settlement, without guidance or preparation from any Palestinian organization
and without giving any hint of what was to come.
"All our population and all our government are against the children below 21
years old to be dying in useless operations," said Hassanein, whose own
15-year-old son, Hasham, sat nearby.
Abu Shenab [a Hamas activist] pointed to one recent Gaza-based operation that
he said remained within the bounds of what is acceptable to Gaza's population.
That, he said, was the attack March 13 on a school for army-bound religious
Israelis at the Gush Katif settlements in the southern Gaza Strip; seven young
cadets [*] were killed. The operation, sponsored by Hamas, was carried out by
Mohammed Farahat, who was armed with an automatic rifle and grenades and was
trained in their use. In addition, Farahat was a longtime follower of Imad
Aql, a legendary Hamas activist in the Gaza Strip who was killed by Israeli
troops after a lengthy run of leading anti-occupation agitation.
At the time of his death in Gush Katif, the veteran Farahat was 17.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[*] PBS was more candid regarding this attack on children taking ~ROTC
academic classes, saying Farahat "massacred five youngsters as they prayed or
slept." PBS also quotes the father saying "I'm happy to sacrifice my five
other sons, not just the one."
[ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june02/gaza_3-27.html ]
Seems is if the "problem" being identified is that these young people,
acting on their own, are ineffective. With the proper training, there'd
be nothing wrong with sending out 14-year olds as suicide bombers.
This is akin to Arafat's imploring a (temporary?) cessation of suicide
bombings and terror directed at innocent civilians because right now it's
causing bad publicity. Not because it is wrong.
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slynne
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response 195 of 269:
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May 16 12:44 UTC 2002 |
One thing that struck me about the article: It basically says that
running near Israeli soldiers when one is unarmed is "suicide" I think
that says a lot about the Israeli soldiers. I agree that it is stupid
for the boys to have done that but lets make it very clear just who
killed those boys.
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lk
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response 196 of 269:
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May 16 19:50 UTC 2002 |
You would prefer that Israeli soldiers would not defend their position
(and the civilians behind them) and allow these attackers (armed with
explosives) who did not heed calls to stop or shots fired into the air
to kill soldiers or children as they are sleeping or praying?
If North Korean children engaged in suicide bombing attacks, and if a group
rushed American soldiers stationed along the DMZ, how long do you think
they'd live if they didn't heed warnings to stop? Would anyone attempt to
misconstrue the situation and twist this into depicting the American soldiers
brutal beasts?
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bhelliom
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response 197 of 269:
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May 16 20:10 UTC 2002 |
It's happened before.
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slynne
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response 198 of 269:
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May 16 20:24 UTC 2002 |
No, but it is putting quite a spin on it to say that these boys (who
didnt have explosives) committed suicide.
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lk
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response 199 of 269:
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May 16 20:33 UTC 2002 |
It just dawned on me that some of the Palestinian Arabs quoted by the
Washington Post were making a distinction between children who are properly
trained to make successful attacks and those who are not and set out on
futile missions of their own design -- yet the Israeli soldiers have no
way to distinguish one group from the other.
Lynne, why don't you call Hamas and ask them to put red hats on the children
they train for such missions. As long as Hamas would abide by such an
agreement Israeli soldiers would know not to shoot at other children.
Gosh, this reminds me that the Geneva Conventions require that legal
combatants be in identifiable uniform -- precisely so that those not in
uniform can be safely assumed to be non-combatants and protected from harm.
The FULL responsibility for the death of these children rests with those who
don't use uniforms but do use children, those who make weapons accessible to
children, those who encourage such children to become "martyrs" and sacrifice
themselves, and on the PA Police that does patrol their side of the border
and work to prevent such attackers from reaching Israeli positions (I guess
they can't tell the difference between those who are acting on their own
versus the ones who are well trained and whom they should let slip through).
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