response 175 of 604:

Apr 11 02:34 UTC 2002

Re #173: why do you refuse to quote exactly what Arafat said in Arabic
(translated by an independent news agency into English)? You keep
saying it was something dire, but refuse to quote it. You implied that
he directly motivated people to commit "individual acts of political
violence", but still refuse to give an exact translation. 

response 177 of 604:

Apr 11 04:49 UTC 2002

re#175: Get yer head out of yer ass, rcurl.  His words are translated
from the arabic all over the place.  Sure they are flowery and poetic
and speak in allusions.  Sure and he doesn't actually say, "I need
4 suicide bombers in Haifa on 4-11" in public.  He uses 'code words'
and no arab has any problem understanding the 'code' - nor anyone
with a lick of understanding of the problem.  Just because you don't
comprende what he says doesn't mean that you can safely ignore
those that do.

response 179 of 604:

Apr 11 06:00 UTC 2002

I seems to recall url and quotes in previous responses to this item.
Its not hard to find what the arabs actually say to one another in
arabic.  Most arabic news outlets do a fairly accurate job of
translation into english.  Just use google and look.

response 181 of 604:

Apr 11 08:40 UTC 2002

Rane:

> Arafat said nothing about instigating violence or attacking anyone except
> in self defense. He referred only to being martyrs and martyrdom in
> *defending* himself and Palestinians from the Israeli invasion.

I fear you missed the point. Arafat has been inciting hatered and violence
throughout the 8 years of the Oslo peace process, not the past 8 days of
Israel's military counter-offensive. Your argument is anachronistic in
the same sense that one would state that Usama bin Laden's "Declaration
of War" against the US (published several years ago) was the result of
the American "invasion" of Afghanistan.

As I've previously linked:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011231&s=editorial123101

Arafat presents no alternative to Hamas, morally and politically and
militarily, upon which Palestinians and Israelis can rely. Instead of
reversing the slide of Palestinian society into sacralized rage, he is
trying to keep up with it. He is not leading, he is coping.

You do not dissuade people from using a discourse by using it yourself. No
cease-fire will hold, no peace will come, no Palestinian state will be
established, unless the mixture of jihad and expediency that now
characterizes the Palestinian community is unambiguously repudiated. 


http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2000/10/23/arafat.html

Arafat decided to marshal his Tanzim forces--maybe 2,000 street enforcers
armed with automatic weapons and more or less loyal to his Fatah wing of the
hydra-headed Palestinian cause--to prepare for an appropriate opportunity.
[Even before Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, which served as a convenient
pretext.] 

the Tanzim added a new dimension of its own, leading a full-fledged shooting
war on Israelis at night. The militias claim they are behind most of the gun
battles at Israeli checkpoints and shoot-ups on Jewish settlements.


http://www.memri.org/sd/SP19401.html

PA Minister: Intifada Was Planned from the Day Arafat Returned from Camp David 

PA Communications Minister, 'Imad Al-Faluji, visited Lebanon and spoke at the
'Ein Al-Hilweh Palestinian refugee camp. In his speech Al-Faluji stated that
the Al-Aqsa Intifada was pre-meditated, and was the Palestinian response to
their failure to achieve their goals at the Camp David negotiations. After
Israel announced its intention to use Al-Faluji's words to support its
response to the Mitchell Commission it was reported that Yasser Arafat
pressured Al-Faluji to retract his statements. Subsequently, Al-Faluji
announced that he had never made such comments. However, similar statements by
Al-Faluji as well as other Palestinian leaders have been reported previously. 


http://www.memri.org/sd/SP13800.html

PA TV Broadcasts call for Killing Jews and Americans 

Following are excerpts from a Friday sermon in the Zayed bin Sultan Aal Nahyan
mosque in Gaza, broadcast live on the official Palestinian Authority
television. The speaker is Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Member of the PA appointed
"Fatwa Council" and former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza.


Really, Rane, your "plausible deniability" defense is groundless.  Sure,
Arafat is sly enough not to explicitly say the exact wrong things in public,
but his hints, nods and winks don't occur in a vacuum. Has Arafat stopped his
own PA TV from broadcasting incitement? Calls for child martyrs? Has he
countered Hamas and IJ's message? Or has he supported the Fatah Hawks, Al Aqsa
Brigades, Force 17 and Tanzim (his own militias) who reiterate that message?

When one of Arafat's top aides called the Oslo peace process a "Trojan horse"
designed to get Arab fighters into the disputed territories, you'd think that
if this wasn't so Arafat would have spoken against this. He remained silent.

Arafat may not have stated that he's a duck, but he walks like a duck, quacks
like a duck, dresses like a duck, is surrounded by other ducks, has been caught
buying duck food, harboring and funding other ducks.

response 183 of 604:

Apr 11 12:50 UTC 2002

I dont know how much it would help if Arafat actually did call for an 
end to violence in Arabic as the US and Israel are demanding but I 
still think he should do it even if just for symbolic purposes. 

response 185 of 604:

Apr 11 16:25 UTC 2002

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011231&s=editorial123101 is an exercise
in out-of-context quoting, gross distortion, and mostly a biased
interpretation of fragments of statements. 

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2000/10/23/arafat.html is entirely
an editorial interpretation of events with no in-context and complete
quotes from Arafat.

 http://www.memri.org/sd/SP19401.html does not quote Arafat.

 http://www.memri.org/sd/SP13800.html does not quote Arafat.

#182 quotes mostly Israeli sources, while the Palestinian quotation
is not violent, but a bit of bravado. None give an independent and
complete quotation from Arafat.

polygon in #184 doesn't remember "the exact words" - so invents some. 

Please cite independent sources for his refusal to do the things you
claim (in Arabic).

This is all very peculiar. I know that some Palestinians are committing
gross and despicable crimes, and some Palestinians are applauding
these acts, and urging further acts of terror. I condemn all of that.
But yet all one hears are misquotes and "interpretations" of Arafat's
remarks, and a consistent refusal to be complete and accurate. 

Of course, now, being under house arrest by a foreign government, and
isolated from almost all contact with the public, how can Arafat be
held responsible for anything, or even attempt to control anything?

response 187 of 604:

Apr 11 18:23 UTC 2002

was that secret code for 'give leeron a wedgie'?

response 189 of 604:

Apr 12 00:16 UTC 2002

http://canada.com/news/story.asp?id={D84ECDD9-E63E-4BA9-8CD0-780267B8CCE6}

   Bush evaded a direct question on whether he considers Palestinian
   leader Yasser Arafat a terrorist. 

   "In order to earn my trust someone must keep his word and Chairman
   Arafat has not kept his word," Bush said. 

   He called on Arafat to speak out - in Arabic - and to order his people
   to end terrorist violence against Israelis. 

   "Chairman Arafat has failed at leadership and he's let his people
   down." 

http://europe.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/06/mideast.diplomacy/index.html

   Bush repeated his sharp criticism of Arafat on Saturday, saying "He
   never earned my trust because he hasn't performed." 

   "He said he would fight off terror. He hasn't," Bush said. "He needs to
   speak clearly, in Arabic, to the people of that region and condemn
   terrorist activities. At the very minimum, he ought to say something."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=68&ncid=68&e=1&u=/nyt/20020
403/ts_nyt/anger_in_the_streets_is_exerting_pressure_on_arab_moderates

   Up to now the Bush administration has shown scant sign of being ready
   to meet such demands. Indeed, the president has made clear that he
   regards the Israeli operation in the West Bank as broadly justified,
   and he has focused his demands on Mr. Arafat, insisting that he
   renounce terror, clearly and in Arabic.

response 191 of 604:

Apr 12 03:58 UTC 2002

the problem is that Israel is spending all kinds of money on this massive
military operation and its useless.  It will not stop the suicide bombings.
They can put tanks on every street.  They can round up and execute the
so called leaders.  Lately the suicide bombers have been kids, regular
people, not soldiers.  Its a grass roots thing that sheer brute strength
and toughness wont stop.  What Israel's military operation has done is UNITE
the arabs all over the region, and toughen (not weaken) the resolve of the
Palestinians.  There are far more arabs in the middle east than jews, and if
there is a will to keep doing these suicide bombings, they will find a way.

I saw a picture of a huge rally in Iraq, tens of thousands of people on the
streets, and all holding big pictures of Saddam Hussein and now Yassir Arafat.
Because of Israel's actions, they now see Arafat even in Iraq as a symbol,
a martyr.  Sharon has made Arafat MORE powerful, not less, and he doesnt 
even seem to realize it.

response 193 of 604:

Apr 12 04:23 UTC 2002

First, a word about "code words". No one has said that when Arafat kisses
a female CNN reporter 3 times it means to bomb Haifa. But when suicide
bombings occur on a daily basis and Arafat calls for more "martyrs" instead
of calling for a cessation of suicide bombings and violence, ever kid on
the street knows what he is saying. Even if you claim that we are are
chasing shadows, the "Arab street" sees and chases the same shadows. Are we
to believe that Arafat is unwittingly using such language -- over the course
of 18 months -- without realizing that some (even within his own camp)
"misinterpret" it as a call to violence?

Rane, I think you got this exacty backwards:

> http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011231&s=editorial123101 is an exercise
> in out-of-context quoting

If one takes the scattered token phrases the west wanted to hear out of
context, then this was a ceasefire. But if one interprets them IN THE CONTEXT
of the other 99% of the speech, a different picture emerges.

> http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2000/10/23/arafat.html is entirely
> an editorial interpretation of events with no in-context and complete
> quotes from Arafat.

It's not an "editorial", it is a reporter on the scene, quoting senior
Tanzim chiefs saying they got their orders to perpetrate violence directly
from Yasser Arafat. [Prior to Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount.]

> http://www.memri.org/sd/SP19401.html does not quote Arafat.

True, but it quotes a top level PA minister saying that Arafat chose a
strategy of violence immediately following Camp David.

(Ditto the quote of another Arafat confidant saying that Oslo was a Trojan
Horse designed to get Arab fighters into the territories.)

> http://www.memri.org/sd/SP13800.html does not quote Arafat

True, but it details the incitement that is broadcast on official PA TV.
Does Arafat not control his own government? Clearly he approves of these
broadcasts. For more examples, particularly aimed at children, see:

http://www.nclci.org/Issues/palestinian_tv_and_radio_teach.htm
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22856

Are we to believe, that Arafat is this saint who is surrounded by people who
hate him and that all the above are lies?  I guess they also forged his
signature on documents procuring arms purchases and that Arafat, despite his
penchant for detail and control, simply didn't notice when 3-15% of his
annual budget was allocated toward a single arms ship-ment.  Did he also not
notice the weapons being stockpiled within his own command center?

But as polygon points out, this isn't just a question of what Arafat has
said. What he has NOT said is just as important. He has repeatedly refused
to abide by agreements he signed.

response 195 of 604:

Apr 12 04:56 UTC 2002

Re #190: bru must be working for the Palestinians. His suggestion is
*exactly* what would bring down the wrath of the world upon Israel
without any blame falling on the Palestinians. It has worked throughout
the world: immolation as protest. 

response 197 of 604:

Apr 12 06:41 UTC 2002

re#195: Exactly.  If the PLA and various other groups were actually
interested in peace then they would have adopted such tactics decades
ago.  Ghandi in India and MLK in the US took the moral high ground. 
Instead, I look at arafat and think 'my god, you hide behind children
and send them out to murder and die'.  Arafat ain't no Ghandi by
no stretch of the imagination.  rcurl, is 'rhe wrath of the world'
coming down on jewboys something you'd like to see?  Sorta reminds
me of 'christ killer' kinda thingy - but you don't believe in Jesus
or any godlike kinda stuff so are you just by nature antisemetic?

Marcus is a slippery fellow and I'm afraid I agree with what he said.

response 199 of 604:

Apr 12 16:02 UTC 2002

so leeron, klg,...how *about* those REFUSENIKS, eh?


8D