response 17 of 127:

Mar 16 14:53 UTC 1999

I'm with STeve on this.

response 19 of 127:

Mar 16 19:50 UTC 1999

How many dial-in users seriously cannot afford $6/month?  People in India
cannot afford this, but Americans who have access to a phone line (which costs
more than $6/month) and a computer not being able to come up with $6/month?

What do people need telnet for that lynx will not do?  Can you telnet from
the library computer?

response 21 of 127:

Mar 16 22:03 UTC 1999

  There are indeed people in the aa area who cannot afford $6/mo.  Or they
can, but might give up something like bus fare to do it.  Remember, not all
the folks around here are at the upper edges financially.

  However, in this day I simply do not see many reasons for telnetting out
for most people.  Back in the summer when Damon and Staci (my kids) were
haing around at the public library a lot, they knew how to telnet because 
of Grex but it seemed that few others did, 'till they showed others Grex.
Not even the librarians knew, and were puzzled 'till Staci showed them
what telnet was.

  These days, there is very little that telnet does that Lynx (web) access
will not do, better.  Grex (and M-Net) is in the very distinct minority in
having the telnet traffic that we do.

  I would like a flat-access model too, but there are some realities tht
get in the way of being completely true to it, so we do what we can, which
is still quite a lot.  I don't think our principals are being hurt because
of this--not when telnet is dying and the web is taking over.

response 23 of 127:

Mar 17 01:19 UTC 1999

Ack yes, leave me telnet!  I use it a lot.

response 25 of 127:

Mar 17 06:52 UTC 1999

Record keeping, validation, consistency, flexibility, policy.

One of the conditions our last ISP imposed on us is that we *not* offer
unlimited internet access to regular users.  This was one of the
conditions we agreed to in exchange for reduced rates on the internet
connection.  Our last ISP was also a commercial outfit selling shell
accounts - if we had given those away "for free" that would have
undermined his business.  Our current ISP, not being a commercial ISP,
does not have any such condition, but there is no guarantee we'll be
able to keep them forever, or, if we select a future commercial ISP,
that "giving away" shell accounts with unlimited internet access might
not become a liability.

Validating internet access imposes these responsiblities on us: we need
to keep records on who it is (so that in case there are problems, we can
hold the person responsible for their actions).  The logical person
(indeed the only real choice we have at present) is our treasurer, for
obvious reasons.  That means treasurer time that can't be spent on other
more important activities, such as deciding when to send out paper
receipts, or dealing with credit card memberships or whatever else we
decide is important.

There are still lots of policy issues to be resolved.  One of the most
important is "what does it really mean to be local?"  The first obvious
question is just how local do you mean by local?  A^2?  SE Mich?
Midwest? If you believe local people should include people who primarily
or only access grex via telnet from other places, then I don't see much
reason to be geographic-centric: grex's "virtual" community is
world-wide, and I see no reason why we should be any more picky about a
user who happens to use the seattle public library than one who happens
to use the ypsilanti public library to access grex.  The second
question, of course, is what about people who move -- do they suddenly
become ineligible?  How do we decide when they've moved away?  What if
they're just on vacation, or going to college somewhere far away but
might be back for summer vacations, or are commuting across the state to
visit their significant other every weekend? If we really mean only
people who dial up to grex (as opposed to telnetting in from the public
library), perhaps that's something login ought to notice: if person is
using a local dialup (same logic as we use for the telnet queue) and
person is in the "validated-local" login group, add them to the
"internet" group also.  Of course, that's not just login, that's also
ftpd, and sshd, which makes it an inelegant and nuisance fix, but
perhaps not much worse than the $MAIL hack we already have.

response 27 of 127:

Mar 17 12:48 UTC 1999

I would volunteer to be a validator.  I bet others would too.

response 29 of 127:

Mar 17 15:44 UTC 1999

        "..folks in india can't afford 6/mo.."

        <snort>, yeah right.. "Software Engineers", too.

response 31 of 127:

Mar 17 18:36 UTC 1999

Re #28:  I guess it's a secret.
I suppose we could have more than one validator, but there would have to be a
central place where validation info is stored.  I'm not sure how picking up
the mail would work, too.

response 33 of 127:

Mar 17 20:13 UTC 1999

Re system load:  As I rember there are about five dial-in users and sixty-five
network-in users.  Thus if restricted to dial-in users, system load should
not be a problem. 
 
Re verification:  Given the dial-in restriction, you have effectively limited
this to locals.  As you have monthly meetings, in person verification is 
possible.  No new software required.
 
Re troublemakers:  A public file with the id's, name's and address's of 
verified users might keep it to a minimum.

response 35 of 127:

Mar 18 01:47 UTC 1999

How about giving out a few free memberships to anyone who can demonstrate that
they are unable to donate $6/month for a paid membership?  And require them
to provide the same id as all other members.  (dial ins only).

You can ftp at the library, we have done it, faster than on grex.

response 37 of 127:

Mar 18 05:04 UTC 1999

Re #33:  Grex currently has 11 dialin lines.

response 39 of 127:

Mar 18 14:28 UTC 1999

Thanks!

response 41 of 127:

Mar 18 16:28 UTC 1999

I got the impression that only people who were both members and cared about
grex bothered to vote anyway..  What was the 'turnout'?  (I forgot).