response 163 of 424:

Jan 14 15:04 UTC 2004

Disk crashes don't happen with advanced notice.

response 165 of 424:

Jan 14 15:40 UTC 2004

Whenever you put anything on Grex, you are trusting the staff not to delete
it.  That's the simple truth.  Grex exists only because of this trust.

I make no excuses for what Valerie did.  I'm pretty angry at her for it. 
Not because I think the text in the items she deleted was essential to
Grex, but because she damaged the relationship of trust between the users
and the staff.  I think the loss of her, and of all her past responses, is
a much bigger blow to Grex than the loss of 6 items.

But you can pass all the resolutions in the world - make a rule against
deleting anything, restore the items that were deleted - whatever.  It's not
going to change the fact that you *have* to trust the staff if you put
anything you think is valuable on Grex.

I'm starting to think that maybe I made a mistake, all these years, trying
to be consciencious about Grex's finances.  I think maybe I gave people
the incorrect impression that they should expect Grex to be run like a
professional organization.  And thus they feel righteous indignation when
it turns out not to be so.

We all feel betrayed - that's what this is all about for those of us who
give a damn.  (There are others here who are just playing games - I don't
care what it's about for them.)  We learned that one of our staffers was
human, and had a limit to how much abuse she could take before she cracked
and did something bad.  I guess that's a hard lesson to learn - kind of
like a little kid finding out his parents aren't gods after all. 

Keep in mind that the only reasons to do work for Grex are a) out of a
sense of duty and obligation, b) because one feels appreciated and
useful, and c) because one believes in the charitable mission of Grex. 

When Grex seems to be mostly a forum for people yelling at each other,
it's hard to believe in the charitable mission.  So if one doesn't feel
appreciated, that leaves only a sense of duty, which will only get you so
far.  Because we all have duties to lots of different things.

So keep in mind, when you're making rules and demands that basically say,
"we can't trust the staff", that you *have* to trust the staff.  The only
alternative is to never put anything valuable on Grex.  And if all anyone
ever put on Grex was crap, what would be the point in keeping it going?

response 169 of 424:

Jan 14 17:53 UTC 2004

My posts in jep's item were not just for his benefit but for others in similar
situations. I object vehemently to their removal. However, I would probably
be willing to edit any portions that contain quotes ascribed to him, if in
fact I did so.

response 171 of 424:

Jan 14 23:55 UTC 2004

re 165
>take before she cracked
Patently false.  She was not crazy or psychotic with anger when she deleted
those items.  In fact, her husband was more angry about it than she was.  Read
the items and do some research, for a change.

re 166 There are plenty of users who ouse both systems, dipshit.

response 175 of 424:

Jan 15 16:11 UTC 2004

resp:173 Yes, it promotes self censorship which is ok as far as I am 
concerned. I think the real reason you dont like that solution is that 
it solves the problem in a fair way. 

response 177 of 424:

Jan 15 17:13 UTC 2004

The proposal in #0 specifically says that individuals should be given 
control over their own posts. 
from resp:0 -
"...these items be restored from back up tapes and individual posters 
be presented with the opportunity to decide for themselves if they wish 
to scribble their posts."

I am merely asking cyklone to scribble his own posts in the jep divorce 
item. Not only that though, I am also asking him to save his posts and 
enter them as a seperate item because I agree with him that what he 
wrote very well may be helpful to someone else. 

response 179 of 424:

Jan 19 15:40 UTC 2004

<donning my voteadm hat...>

Since this proposal was made 10 days ago, it's appropriate to review
the timelines and procedures regarding voting on it.

There's a two-week discussion period prior to any vote.  After that,
the proposer may post a final wording and ask that it be voted on,
or may elect not to bring it to a vote.  The vote takes place over
a period of 10 days.  The proposal passes if a majority of those
members who vote cast a ballot in favor.

The earliest that voting could begin on this proposal is January 23.

response 181 of 424:

Jan 20 00:40 UTC 2004

Bad analogy. What is going on here is more a case of a collected work
where some authors would like it to go out of print and the remaining
authors wish to continue printing with the unwilling authors' works
removed. 

response 183 of 424:

Jan 20 01:44 UTC 2004

Sir, the staff worked extremely hard to bring back GreX's email, which could
have been lost.  It seems to me they would work hard if one of GreX's hard
disks failed and some of the content on the bbs was removed.  But like we said
before, this is not a hardware issue.  A GreX staffer removed text from the
bbs that wasn't hers.  How would you like it if the staff removed your mail?
Surely, they aren't responsible for it.
But the staff won't do this, and for good reason.  Just as they won't remove
items at random from the bbs.

I think the censorship charge is justified in this situation.

response 185 of 424:

Jan 20 02:27 UTC 2004

Yeah, krj is ducking an obvious issue by throwing up red herrings. The value
of a post does not depend on whether or not the poster chooses to save it.
I could have all my items posts saved yet deletion still removes them from
the original context which others may find beneficial.