response 162 of 186:

May 15 06:11 UTC 1997

There are some advantages to Grex to attract non-profits as members. Grex
can always use more support and non-profits would be good members as they
have an understanding of non-profit operation (such as Grex), might
attract some of their members to membership, and could be encouraged to fw
new and interesting conferences in their activity areas. 

The question can be posed, how can Grex attract non-profits as members or
donors? Nothing is being done now to do so. How does grex attract *anyone*
as a donor? I would say it doesn't, except when there is a specific
fundraiser. What attracts donors otherwise is essentially only membership. 

[cmgee raises the notion that non-profits shouldn't even use Grex. But any
use of Grex by a non-profit is managed by an individual. Is she suggesting
that even though the use of Grex by an individual on behalf of a
non-profit is within all existing guidelines, there should be a new policy
to forbid such use?]

My proposal for a voting membership category for non-profit corporations
isn't receiving any support, so I will pose the question otherwise: how
can these *very good citizens* be attracted to support Grex? Just waiting
for them to do so is not likely to work (it does not work with the 14,000
non-member users of Grex). Some sort of identity or recognition of these
very special users is all I can think of. If not membership on the par
with individuals with a vote, what else would be attractive?

response 164 of 186:

May 16 03:42 UTC 1997

Rane must circulate in a better atmosphere than I do.  I've *seen* such
hanky-panky, more than once, from the commercial world ($10 million), to
the small scale (local "for fun" clubs).  While money is often the
motive, it is not always - there *are* plenty of people who get off on
power trips.

Pure malevolent mischief is not the only reason we should be concerned.
It is entirely possible to get the same outcome without any malevolence.
First one or two non-profits set up shop here, and find life good.
Friends tell friends, and a few other non-profits show up, and start
helping the system.  Non-profit people use their board experience to run
for the grex board.  Meetings are run in a more "professional" manner.
Outside funding is found to supplement chronically short membership
donations.  Special projects are undertaken to support the needs of
non-profits.  It is very possible for the balance of power to shift in
just such an evolutionary fashion, entirely guided by good intentions.
Once it happened, it would be hard to undo.  How do you replace
substantial non-member corporate funding? How do you make your voice
heard at board meetings run by RRO, when none of the board members wants
to listen to you?

response 166 of 186:

May 16 06:41 UTC 1997

The problem is that's not really the mission grex was originally
designed to address.  Grex was designed to be a public access system for
individual *people*, not *corporations*, no matter how deserving.  In a
sense, what you're asking for is almost like taking an apartment
building, and turning it into the New Center.

response 168 of 186:

May 16 19:06 UTC 1997

Well, that survey sounds like a good idea, Rane.  Are you volunteering?  :)
I mostly agree with Marcus that Grex's mission has been a meeting place for
people, run by people for the purposes of establishing a community.  I don't
know that making a corporate membership non-voting has to make it seem like a
"second-class" membership, especially since such members probably wouldn't
want to vote anyway, as you said.

I like the idea of Grex being useful to non-profits, though.  Perhaps what we
should do is to try to make Grex as useful to non-profits as possible, but 
rather than recruit the non-profits themselves as members, try to recruit the
people behind the corporations.  It seems like they might be ideal candidates
for becoming involved in Grex's community, and eventually supporting it.

Maybe not, I don't know.

response 170 of 186:

May 16 20:55 UTC 1997

Leave my name off any web page of grex members.  Let 'em create an account
on grex and figure out how to access the "members" command, if they can...

response 172 of 186:

May 16 21:49 UTC 1997

Re #170: If they create an account using webnewuser and then
access grex exclusively from backtalk, they won't be able to use
the 'members' command, because they won't ever telnet here.

response 174 of 186:

May 17 04:37 UTC 1997

Here is my draft survey. The first item goes into the motd. The survey
is a response to mail received.

motd notice:

NON-PROFIT CORPORATE USERS - please send e-mail to rcurl to be included in
a survey of use of Grex by such organizations. -rcurl

Message for responders:

Thank you for responding to my note in the motd. Grex is aware that a
number of non-profit corporations, or members of such corporations, are
using Grex for e-mail, web pages and other communications. There is a
discussion now (Item 7 in the coop conference)  of the desirability of
creating a class of "institutional membership"  just for non-profit
corporations, to both recognize their importance in our community, and to
facilitate their supporting Grex with dues. First, though, we have to know
who are the non-profit users of Grex, and a little about their needs. 

I would appreciate it if a representative of your non-profit corporation
would fill in the following questionnaire, and return it to me.

1. Would it be OK for the information you provide to be identified by your
corporation, or would you wish not to be identified in the public record? 


2. What is the name of your non-profit corporation, and what are its
purposes?


3. Are you director or member based, and if member based, how many members
do you have?


4. How is your grex account being used?

        file archive 
        e-mail
        forwarding mail to a group
        topical conferencing
        telnet access to other servers

5. About how many members of your organization are members of Grex?


6. Would your organization be interested in joining Grex as
some kind of "institutional member"? 


7. If the answer is yes, would the organization having a vote for
Grex directors be important?


8. Would there be any services that Grex might provide specifically to
"institutional members" that would facilitate their operations? 



Thank you for your time. 
Rane L. Curl

response 176 of 186:

May 17 18:51 UTC 1997

I have started a new item, picking up from response #162 in this one.

response 178 of 186:

May 19 16:42 UTC 1997

Re: #172:  Exactly!  Unregistered readers have no need to see who the
[registered] grex members are, AFAIC.

response 180 of 186:

May 20 15:50 UTC 1997

So you were.  Well, if you could implement a cgi to invoke the members
command and return as a web page *to registered readers only*, that would have
the same effect as telling telnet users to run it for themselves.

response 182 of 186:

May 20 20:21 UTC 1997

Places that cater to the rich and famous usually keep a lid on their
memberships lists. That also applies to non-profits that have big benefactors
as members. The object is to reduce notoriety and annoyances for such members
(who are more likely to be subject to it than us plebians). Well, you
asked.....

response 184 of 186:

May 21 01:08 UTC 1997

If most organizations liquidated all their assets and went to
Germany after 8 years.....?