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| 25 new of 378 responses total. |
rcurl
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response 161 of 378:
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Mar 8 06:02 UTC 2006 |
Re #157: homosexuality is inherent and not a choice. Are you saying that
obesity is inherent and not a choice (a choice through behavior adoptions)?
Perhaps some is, if there are glandular imbalances, but I don't think you can
compare obesity in most people with homosexuality. Depression is also a
neurochemical disorder. What kind of disorder is obesity?
One can better compare the habit of obesity to the habit of smoking. Both are
correctable by a person making a decision to correct them.
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marcvh
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response 162 of 378:
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Mar 8 07:20 UTC 2006 |
As Rane knows, or should know, obesity is often the result of of eating
disorders, with binge eating disorder being the most common. My
understanding is that eating disorders have a neurochemical component
(but then again, what doesn't?) It sounds like Rane is using
neurochemicals as his litmus test to determine whether overeating is a
"real disease" as opposed to a character flaw (yes?)
Obesity and depression also can go hand in hand; with so-called atypical
depression the symtoms include weight gain, excessive sleeping and so
on. In such a case it seems hard for me to imagine how you could
effectively change the obesity without treating the depression.
An important difference between food and smoking is that you can
comletely give up smoking. You can't completely give up food, although
people who hear moralistic sermons about the virtues of eating less may
decide to give it a try, resulting in anorexia. Would that be
sufficient to demonstrate self-discipline?
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slynne
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response 163 of 378:
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Mar 8 12:59 UTC 2006 |
I think Rane doesnt believe that denying one's natural appetite is
anything like denying one's sexual desires. Interestingly, homosexual
behavior is more like smoking than obesity in that one can completely
give up sex or completely give up smoking.
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nharmon
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response 164 of 378:
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Mar 8 13:43 UTC 2006 |
> One can better compare the habit of obesity to the habit of smoking.
> Both are correctable by a person making a decision to correct them.
I think Rane is onto something, because obesity might be viewed as
addiction. I wonder if there are any studies about treating obesity as
an addiction. Of course, like Marc said, you have to eat, but you don't
have to smoke.
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keesan
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response 165 of 378:
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Mar 8 13:49 UTC 2006 |
Jim used to work with someone obese and years later ran into him and did not
recognize him because he had lost so much weight. He said he switched to
eating vegetarian. People can make conscious choices to give up certain types
of things that they put into their mouths. We know two other people who are
losing weight after giving up alcohol. Counting calories is not likely to
work for long, but changing the types of foods you eat can have a big effect.
I lost 20 pounds when I stopped eating dorm food, which was full of grease
and sugar. Giving up refined foods is likely to reduce someone's weight.
I have seen some really fat vegans, who brought to vegan potlucks things like
cookies that they bought at the store, made without milk or eggs but with lots
of white flour and sugar. Cheese is mostly fat. It would be hard to gain
weight by eating unlimited amounts of fruit and non-starchy vegetables (or
even unrefined starchy vegetables without added fats).
When I was trying to gain 20 pounds I ate cheese and milk and eggs and ice
cream.
I think Rane has never gone on a weight-loss diet.
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nharmon
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response 166 of 378:
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Mar 8 14:05 UTC 2006 |
I've thought about becoming vegetarian. If meat gets any more
expensive, I just might.
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slynne
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response 167 of 378:
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Mar 8 14:09 UTC 2006 |
Changing what one eats only works for people who have bad diets. I have
known fat vegans who dont eat sugar.
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cyklone
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response 168 of 378:
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Mar 8 14:21 UTC 2006 |
Re #160: Again, apples and oranges. What non-health care costs do you think
salon workers and coal miners are externalizing on general society?
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mary
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response 169 of 378:
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Mar 8 14:30 UTC 2006 |
The following is a link to a blogger I like to read, because she's
in-your-face honest and edgy. I don't agree with her point of view
here, in fact I think it shows an amazing lack of empathy. But I
suspect she does speak for a whole lot of people who see this issue
as simply lack of self-control.
http://miminewyork.blogspot.com/2005/12/fat.html
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keesan
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response 170 of 378:
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Mar 8 14:31 UTC 2006 |
What do the fat vegans eat? White flour, white rice, white noodles? They
all digest very quickly. Fried foods?
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jadecat
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response 171 of 378:
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Mar 8 15:33 UTC 2006 |
For me the whole thing boils down to - healthy diet- with portion size
kept in mind- and exersize. Sure, as you begin to lose weight (with diet
alone) metabolism slows- which is where moderate exersize comes into play.
Portion size doesn't seem to be much of a conversation topic in this
item. The biggest problem with Americans is portion size. You can eat
foods considered to be healthy, but if you eat huge portions you're
still going to end up with calories that your body can't burn- so that
turns into fat.
I like the website sparkpeople.com because it helps track what you're
eating (caloric content, fat content, etc) and exersize programs (how
many minutes, how many calories burned). For me this is really helpful
because over time I can see (via a reporting program) what areas need to
be adjusted- is there a particular time in which I binge a little/a lot.
What types of exersizes can I do- and how should I be doing them?
My goal is not to be a size 6- looking at 'skinny people' isn't the
answer. Not everyone has a bone structure that would work for size 6.
However, I don't feel healthy at my current weight, and I would like to
be healthier and stronger. That means getting rid of my extra fat and
building muscle. Muscles also burn more calories so that one can eat
more and not gain extra fat.
I fully recognize that my problem in attaining this goal is lack of
willpower. I do well exersizing for a few weeks, and then slack off. My
eating habits tend to go from okay to ooh-not-so-good, but don't tend to
hit terrible often. Luckily while my scale hasn't gone down really it
also hasn't gone up either.
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richard
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response 172 of 378:
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Mar 8 15:44 UTC 2006 |
anne did you smoke all those years in part because you thought the cigs could
be a diet aide, like if you were smoking you didn't need to be eating?
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slynne
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response 173 of 378:
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Mar 8 16:07 UTC 2006 |
resp:168 - Would rescue efforts when mines cave in count as a non-
health care cost to society? Probably not. But whatever, I generally
think of obesity as a state of being (like gender, race, sexual
orientation) so whatever extra costs to society there are dont justify
discrimination, shaming, etc. My opinion is that anyone who thinks it
is ok to publicly shame fat people or try to humiliate them are bigots.
I think that the woman who wrote that blog Mary linked to is a bigot.
I think statements like "they could lose weight if they wanted to, they
are just undisciplined" really are similar to "those fags could stop
having sex if they wanted, they are just undisciplined"
I dont know what else to say about it, cyklone.
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edina
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response 174 of 378:
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Mar 8 16:38 UTC 2006 |
You think she's a bigot? Why? Because she's honest?
Come ON! Someone who balloons up to 600 lbs is not *stupid*. They *know*
what they are doing, and by saying, "oh - but you have the right to be like
that" is enabling in a cruel and sadistic way.
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jadecat
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response 175 of 378:
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Mar 8 16:54 UTC 2006 |
resp:172 Nope. I smoked because I liked it and was addicted. However,
given all the chemicals in cigarettes it shouldn't be surprising that
smoking affects metabolism. The altered metabolism theory leading to
weight gain post smoking makes sense to me. It isn't always about the
person quitting eating more- it's that their metabolism has slowed down.
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slynne
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response 176 of 378:
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Mar 8 18:08 UTC 2006 |
I think she is a bigot because she is making those claims about the 600
lb woman based on nothing but her own prejudice. She has NO IDEA what
that woman eats. And even if she does eat that much, is it her fault if
her body doesnt respond to the cues of fullness that other people's do?
Is it her fault that she has a greater appetite than others? I dont
know but I think it is likely that she has something wrong with her
besides a lack of self-control. I think it is possible that is just how
her body is.
What would be interesting to find out although, of course we have no
way of finding out, is how much weight she lost after having gastric
bypass surgury.
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edina
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response 177 of 378:
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Mar 8 18:18 UTC 2006 |
Your sense of denial is pretty much mindblowing to me at this point.
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slynne
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response 178 of 378:
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Mar 8 18:20 UTC 2006 |
I could say the same thing about you.
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edina
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response 179 of 378:
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Mar 8 18:22 UTC 2006 |
Lynne, the difference between us is that I've never let my weight be an excuse
for anything. Sure, I'm somewhat fat. So what?
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slynne
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response 180 of 378:
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Mar 8 18:34 UTC 2006 |
But seriously. I am not in denial about my own weight. I know I am fat.
I am not in denial about my diet. I know it isnt all that great. I am
not even in denial about the possibility that I might have an eating
disorder and a somewhat fucked up relationship with food. What do you
think I am using my weight as an excuse for?
I do find it interesting that whenever fat people try to point out the
prejudices of others they are accused of being in denial. I see this a
lot on some of the size-acceptance sites I read. People seem to have a
real problem if a fat person questions the common view that fat people
are gross or lazy or out of control. They also dont like it if fat
people choose to question just how much control they have over their
diets or metabolism or whatever. And it REALLY happens if they question
the health risks of obesity or suggest that it might be anything less
than a terminal condition.
It reminds me a lot of a book I read about how people think. It was a
book about how people think in frames and tend to discard information
that doesnt fit with the frame they believe. People in this country
tend to believe that everyone has control over every aspect of their
lives. They believe that people who are poor are poor because they
deserve to be and that rich people are better people than they are
simply because they happen to be rich. Any evidence that poverty might
be related to anything other than a person's effort is discarded. Same
with weight.
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slynne
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response 181 of 378:
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Mar 8 18:36 UTC 2006 |
Let me ask you something else. You say that you are still somewhat
overweight. Do you sit around on the couch all day stuffing your face
full of food. There are people who probably think that of you based on
no other information than how you look. Do you think that could mean
that they have prejudices about fat people?
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happyboy
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response 182 of 378:
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Mar 8 18:37 UTC 2006 |
hey, what is your exercise regimine these days? i think that
factor is the most important mentioned in terms of health
impact...well that and NOT smoking.
your bloodwork ok and all?
come visit.
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happyboy
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response 183 of 378:
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Mar 8 18:37 UTC 2006 |
slippage
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scholar
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response 184 of 378:
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Mar 8 18:46 UTC 2006 |
re. 169: does she use commas?!
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slynne
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response 185 of 378:
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Mar 8 18:53 UTC 2006 |
resp:182 - I hurt my knee pretty badly at the end of January so I
stopped walking. Before that, I was taking the dogs out for 1/2 hour
walk at least three times a week but sometimes more often (Jan was a
warm month).
I started walking again when I was in California. I was surprised at
how much out of shape I had gotten in just three weeks. I am slowly
getting back into the old take the dogs out 3 or more times per week.
(So far this week it has been a 45 min walk on sunday and a 30 min walk
yesterday. I'll probably do just a little 20 minute walk tonight
because I have afterwork plans).
I started smoking again in August but have quit again a week ago.
I have a doctor's appointment on the 27th so I have more information
about my health after that time. I know from donating blood that my
blood pressure is good but my iron levels are not (I was refused the
last two times because of that).
I am planning a visit to Seattle soon.
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