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| 25 new of 378 responses total. |
slynne
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response 152 of 378:
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Mar 8 00:47 UTC 2006 |
resp:117 It isnt that people necessarily say that in so many words. But
people do occasionally make very negative comments about my weight. Even
here on grex it happens once in a while (I seem to remember some
comments in the coop conference) and once in a while someone will leave
really hateful comments on my blog...usually perfect strangers. Those
comments bother me the least though because I figure that anyone who
would do that is pretty much an asshole and not worth worrying about.
But there are more subtle things. Things that I didnt actually notice
myself but somehow internalized anyways. Luckily, I had a really good
therapist when I was in my 20's who helped me realize that just because
a lot of people think bad things about fat people, that doesnt mean that
I have to believe those things about myself. One example of the more
subtle things is the way people often call other people fat and mean it
as a character flaw.
resp:126 Actually, I used the men weigh more specifically as an example
because gender is a state of being. I may not have convinced you that
weight is a state of being and not a behavior but I do have to wonder
where you get the idea that it isnt? Certainly it isnt based on research
on the success of dieting. But ok, I havent convinced you. I think I can
live with that. You havent convinced me that fat people cost society a
significant amount of money either. FWIW, while I dont think a "carb
tax" would be helpful because I dont think all carbs are bad, I actually
wouldnt be against taxing certain foods because that is a tax on a
behavior and not a state of being. How about a tax on high fructose corn
syrup and trans fats for a start?
resp:127 FWIW, I started smoking when I was 15 because one of my friends
told me that smoking keeps people from gaining weight. I dont have
anything to say about that other than that I clearly was not as smart at
15 as I thought I was at the time. Obviously, it didnt work anyways.
resp:134 There is no argument that if one takes in fewer calories than
one burns up, one will lose weight. However, as a person loses weight,
their metabolism slows down and they have to further decrease the number
of calories to lose weight. It is worth noting that people who have
gastric bypass surgury often end up maintaining a normal weight on
something like 800-1000 calories a day. That is a very low amount. Now
consider that another part of the equation is appetite. Most people who
eat 1000 calories a day or less find that they are very hungry. Hunger
is a normal function of the human body and while it is true that a
person can ignore it, I dont think it is resonable to expect them to do
it. A gay friend of mine who was raised in a family full of fat people
compared it to being gay. If you are a gay man, sleeping with other men
is clearly a behavior. But his body or his mind or whatever makes him
want to do it even though there is a lot of pressure in our society for
gay people not to. In order to fit into mainstream society, he would
either have to not have sex or sleep with women. Both are behaviors but
in his case, they are behaviors that go against who he really is. It
would mean he would have to go against his own sexual desire. And so it
is with fat people. Yes, I could choose to eat a very low calorie diet
in order to conform to society's norms. But doing so would mean going
against normal internal body cues like hunger.
resp:146 Why measure a person's BMI? I mean it is is weight alone that
matters when one considers the consumption of fuel. They could weigh
everone at check in and then charge everyone an additional forty five
cents for every ten pounds they are above average and make them pay
right that. A person who is 100 lbs overweight would have to pay $4.50
extra. If an infant is "flying free" then the infant's weight would be
included with the ticket buying passenger's. I suppose they could give a
discount to people who are under the average weight too. Twenty pounds
under weight? Here's your ninety cents! Somehow I think the cost of
weighing people at check in isnt worth it to them.
resp:147 FWIW, even if those studies corrected for seriously ill people
who as keesan has pointed out tend to lose weight because of their
illnesses, I wouldnt worry too much about being underweight. It might be
a risk factor but certainly not as big of one as not exercising might
be.
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rcurl
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response 153 of 378:
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Mar 8 00:56 UTC 2006 |
keesan noted "Someone (Rane?) claimed that fat people were simply
unwilling to diet. Rane, have you ever dieted to lose weight? Dieting
makes you hungry, I presume, and maybe short-tempered, and unhappy."
Being "hungry, I presume, and maybe short-tempered, and unhappy" is the
excuse given for people to be unwilling to diet. If they would stop making
excuses and *just did it*, they would lose weight. To attain any goal
requires an effort at self discipline and even some inconvenience.
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marcvh
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response 154 of 378:
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Mar 8 01:04 UTC 2006 |
Are there any studies indicating the success of giving obese people
lectures on self-discipline? How often does it work?
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nharmon
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response 155 of 378:
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Mar 8 01:07 UTC 2006 |
I think the major problem is that people think they can lose in a few
weeks, weight they've spent years building up. If it took you 7 years to
go from moderately healthy to obese, what makes you think you will have
your weight back down in 4 months?
This is why it takes a lifestyle change. Weight is best lost over time.
No doctor is going to tell you that its healthy to drop 100 pounds in a
month.
> as a person loses weight, their metabolism slows down and they have to
> further decrease the number of calories to lose weight.
As I understand it, the major cause of metabolism slow down is because
of vitamin deficiency. That is why if you are dieting, you should
definetely take a multivitamin. Keeps the metabolism going.
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nharmon
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response 156 of 378:
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Mar 8 01:08 UTC 2006 |
Re 154: Never, same goes for alcoholics and cigarette smokers.
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gull
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response 157 of 378:
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Mar 8 02:10 UTC 2006 |
Rane reminds me of people who say that homosexuals can turn straight if
they want it badly enough, or that people suffering from depression
just need to "snap out of it."
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keesan
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response 158 of 378:
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Mar 8 03:04 UTC 2006 |
Rane, have you ever dieted to lose weight? Not everyone is fortunate enough
to be a healthy weight without being hungry all the time, some people have
metabolic disorders, unlike you.
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naftee
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response 159 of 378:
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Mar 8 04:04 UTC 2006 |
tod spikes his coffee at work
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slynne
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response 160 of 378:
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Mar 8 04:44 UTC 2006 |
One of my favorite blogs is Feministe. Today, one of their writers had
an interesting post about the magazine Redbook, an issue they had where
they showed pictures of women of various sizes and some of the anti-fat
reaction it got.
http://w.ick.ca/5065
I thought this part was interesting:
"With obesity comes a series of health risks. Anorexia brings a lot of
health risks with it, too. So does smoking, working in a nail salon, and
coal-mining. The difference, of course, is that we don t teach smokers,
nail salon employees, and coal miners that they should be ashamed of
their very existance; that they re universally unattractive; and that
they re lazy, stupid, and justly on the receiving end of bigotted jokes.
This is what we tell fat people."
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rcurl
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response 161 of 378:
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Mar 8 06:02 UTC 2006 |
Re #157: homosexuality is inherent and not a choice. Are you saying that
obesity is inherent and not a choice (a choice through behavior adoptions)?
Perhaps some is, if there are glandular imbalances, but I don't think you can
compare obesity in most people with homosexuality. Depression is also a
neurochemical disorder. What kind of disorder is obesity?
One can better compare the habit of obesity to the habit of smoking. Both are
correctable by a person making a decision to correct them.
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marcvh
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response 162 of 378:
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Mar 8 07:20 UTC 2006 |
As Rane knows, or should know, obesity is often the result of of eating
disorders, with binge eating disorder being the most common. My
understanding is that eating disorders have a neurochemical component
(but then again, what doesn't?) It sounds like Rane is using
neurochemicals as his litmus test to determine whether overeating is a
"real disease" as opposed to a character flaw (yes?)
Obesity and depression also can go hand in hand; with so-called atypical
depression the symtoms include weight gain, excessive sleeping and so
on. In such a case it seems hard for me to imagine how you could
effectively change the obesity without treating the depression.
An important difference between food and smoking is that you can
comletely give up smoking. You can't completely give up food, although
people who hear moralistic sermons about the virtues of eating less may
decide to give it a try, resulting in anorexia. Would that be
sufficient to demonstrate self-discipline?
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slynne
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response 163 of 378:
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Mar 8 12:59 UTC 2006 |
I think Rane doesnt believe that denying one's natural appetite is
anything like denying one's sexual desires. Interestingly, homosexual
behavior is more like smoking than obesity in that one can completely
give up sex or completely give up smoking.
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nharmon
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response 164 of 378:
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Mar 8 13:43 UTC 2006 |
> One can better compare the habit of obesity to the habit of smoking.
> Both are correctable by a person making a decision to correct them.
I think Rane is onto something, because obesity might be viewed as
addiction. I wonder if there are any studies about treating obesity as
an addiction. Of course, like Marc said, you have to eat, but you don't
have to smoke.
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keesan
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response 165 of 378:
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Mar 8 13:49 UTC 2006 |
Jim used to work with someone obese and years later ran into him and did not
recognize him because he had lost so much weight. He said he switched to
eating vegetarian. People can make conscious choices to give up certain types
of things that they put into their mouths. We know two other people who are
losing weight after giving up alcohol. Counting calories is not likely to
work for long, but changing the types of foods you eat can have a big effect.
I lost 20 pounds when I stopped eating dorm food, which was full of grease
and sugar. Giving up refined foods is likely to reduce someone's weight.
I have seen some really fat vegans, who brought to vegan potlucks things like
cookies that they bought at the store, made without milk or eggs but with lots
of white flour and sugar. Cheese is mostly fat. It would be hard to gain
weight by eating unlimited amounts of fruit and non-starchy vegetables (or
even unrefined starchy vegetables without added fats).
When I was trying to gain 20 pounds I ate cheese and milk and eggs and ice
cream.
I think Rane has never gone on a weight-loss diet.
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nharmon
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response 166 of 378:
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Mar 8 14:05 UTC 2006 |
I've thought about becoming vegetarian. If meat gets any more
expensive, I just might.
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slynne
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response 167 of 378:
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Mar 8 14:09 UTC 2006 |
Changing what one eats only works for people who have bad diets. I have
known fat vegans who dont eat sugar.
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cyklone
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response 168 of 378:
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Mar 8 14:21 UTC 2006 |
Re #160: Again, apples and oranges. What non-health care costs do you think
salon workers and coal miners are externalizing on general society?
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mary
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response 169 of 378:
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Mar 8 14:30 UTC 2006 |
The following is a link to a blogger I like to read, because she's
in-your-face honest and edgy. I don't agree with her point of view
here, in fact I think it shows an amazing lack of empathy. But I
suspect she does speak for a whole lot of people who see this issue
as simply lack of self-control.
http://miminewyork.blogspot.com/2005/12/fat.html
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keesan
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response 170 of 378:
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Mar 8 14:31 UTC 2006 |
What do the fat vegans eat? White flour, white rice, white noodles? They
all digest very quickly. Fried foods?
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jadecat
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response 171 of 378:
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Mar 8 15:33 UTC 2006 |
For me the whole thing boils down to - healthy diet- with portion size
kept in mind- and exersize. Sure, as you begin to lose weight (with diet
alone) metabolism slows- which is where moderate exersize comes into play.
Portion size doesn't seem to be much of a conversation topic in this
item. The biggest problem with Americans is portion size. You can eat
foods considered to be healthy, but if you eat huge portions you're
still going to end up with calories that your body can't burn- so that
turns into fat.
I like the website sparkpeople.com because it helps track what you're
eating (caloric content, fat content, etc) and exersize programs (how
many minutes, how many calories burned). For me this is really helpful
because over time I can see (via a reporting program) what areas need to
be adjusted- is there a particular time in which I binge a little/a lot.
What types of exersizes can I do- and how should I be doing them?
My goal is not to be a size 6- looking at 'skinny people' isn't the
answer. Not everyone has a bone structure that would work for size 6.
However, I don't feel healthy at my current weight, and I would like to
be healthier and stronger. That means getting rid of my extra fat and
building muscle. Muscles also burn more calories so that one can eat
more and not gain extra fat.
I fully recognize that my problem in attaining this goal is lack of
willpower. I do well exersizing for a few weeks, and then slack off. My
eating habits tend to go from okay to ooh-not-so-good, but don't tend to
hit terrible often. Luckily while my scale hasn't gone down really it
also hasn't gone up either.
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richard
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response 172 of 378:
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Mar 8 15:44 UTC 2006 |
anne did you smoke all those years in part because you thought the cigs could
be a diet aide, like if you were smoking you didn't need to be eating?
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slynne
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response 173 of 378:
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Mar 8 16:07 UTC 2006 |
resp:168 - Would rescue efforts when mines cave in count as a non-
health care cost to society? Probably not. But whatever, I generally
think of obesity as a state of being (like gender, race, sexual
orientation) so whatever extra costs to society there are dont justify
discrimination, shaming, etc. My opinion is that anyone who thinks it
is ok to publicly shame fat people or try to humiliate them are bigots.
I think that the woman who wrote that blog Mary linked to is a bigot.
I think statements like "they could lose weight if they wanted to, they
are just undisciplined" really are similar to "those fags could stop
having sex if they wanted, they are just undisciplined"
I dont know what else to say about it, cyklone.
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edina
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response 174 of 378:
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Mar 8 16:38 UTC 2006 |
You think she's a bigot? Why? Because she's honest?
Come ON! Someone who balloons up to 600 lbs is not *stupid*. They *know*
what they are doing, and by saying, "oh - but you have the right to be like
that" is enabling in a cruel and sadistic way.
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jadecat
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response 175 of 378:
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Mar 8 16:54 UTC 2006 |
resp:172 Nope. I smoked because I liked it and was addicted. However,
given all the chemicals in cigarettes it shouldn't be surprising that
smoking affects metabolism. The altered metabolism theory leading to
weight gain post smoking makes sense to me. It isn't always about the
person quitting eating more- it's that their metabolism has slowed down.
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slynne
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response 176 of 378:
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Mar 8 18:08 UTC 2006 |
I think she is a bigot because she is making those claims about the 600
lb woman based on nothing but her own prejudice. She has NO IDEA what
that woman eats. And even if she does eat that much, is it her fault if
her body doesnt respond to the cues of fullness that other people's do?
Is it her fault that she has a greater appetite than others? I dont
know but I think it is likely that she has something wrong with her
besides a lack of self-control. I think it is possible that is just how
her body is.
What would be interesting to find out although, of course we have no
way of finding out, is how much weight she lost after having gastric
bypass surgury.
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