response 150 of 221:

May 8 23:51 UTC 2000

md claims to be irritated by people who claim to be liberal humanists 
but who like Gilbert and Sullivan.  Being one myself, I think I can 
explain.

No hypocrisy is involved.

You're not being asked to _vote_ for Gilbert, you know.

That's beside the fact that Gilbert satirized everything he could get 
his hands on, and you really can't determine all his views from his 
work.  Once, when complimented for the opinion expressed in a song, he 
said, "The views are not mine.  They are those of the wrong-headed 
donkey who sings them."

I'm more puzzled by the outbreak of G&S-bashing above.  Nobody's 
forcing you to listen to this, are they?

That Flanders and Swann song, btw, is directed specifically at the 
D'Oyly Carte Company, which, especially in the 1950s, was notorious for 
its extremely sterile productions.  American productions (the copyright 
had already expired here) were much livelier and much better.

response 152 of 221:

May 9 00:46 UTC 2000

Well, not forced to listen, exactly, but I have
been played The Mikado as if I were being educated 
in the finer things in life.  That, and the
presumption that my reluctance can only mean that 
I've come from listening to Bob Seger, rather than
Pelleas et Melisande, irritates me more than G&S's 
words and music.  You might never learn what I was 
listening to -- or if you do, it won't be from my 
mouth -- but I do reserve the right to have a little 
private fun in verse.

response 154 of 221:

May 9 11:04 UTC 2000

Can great light opera, or great art of any kind,
be cruel, racist, fascist, whatever?  I think the
answer is yes, absolutely, whether we like that
fact or not.  What Auden said, regarding literature:
"Time, that is intolerant Of the brave and innocent,
And indifferent in a week To a beautiful physique,
Worships language and forgives Everyone by whom it
lives, Pardons cowardice, conceit, Lays it honors at
their feet.  Time, that with this strange excuse,
Pardoned Kipling and his views, And will pardon Paul
Claudel, Pardons them for writing well."  G&S can be
anything they like, for all I care, so long as the 
art is good.  They do have a witty lyric here, a
hummable tune there.  I'm not anti-G&S by any means.
(I know I must sound like one of those people who say
you can like something but you have to like it for 
the right reasons [ie, my reasons].  Don't mean to.)

response 156 of 221:

May 9 20:06 UTC 2000

md may well be right about the bulk of G&S aficionados: having spent 
much time in their company, I've noticed that it appears that many of 
them are not musical in any other respect.  What those individuals see 
in G&S is not at all clear to me.

As for _The Mikado_ being presented as if it were one of the finer 
things in life ... it is, it is.  But if you can't name of the top of 
your head half a dozen "finer things" that you have no taste for, then 
your sense of discrimination is highly undeveloped.

I don't much like most high opera myself: the only operas I've ever 
fully enjoyed are "The Barber of Seville", "Carmen", several Mozart 
comedies, and (odd one out in this bunch) "Das Rheingold".  (Yes, I 
have heard the entirety of the Ring.)  Not surprisingly, in view of the 
bulk of that list, the part of my brain that's wiggled by G&S is the 
same part that's wiggled by musical comedy of the Broadway variety, and 
that's where I keep it in my head, though with notation for Sullivan's 
infinite superiority as composer and especially as arranger over most 
Broadway musicians, and for Gilbert's very different style as lyricist.

As for offensiveness ... if I only allowed myself to listen to vocal 
music with which I agreed with every sentiment, my CD collection would 
be tiny indeed.  Wagner was a monster, but he's dead: he won't be 
earning any royalties when I go to hear Rheingold.  If I like the 
music, and can ignore the words, I'll listen to it.

response 158 of 221:

May 11 16:19 UTC 2000

md: Well, it's a common problem of cultists of various kinds that they 
refuse to believe that others don't share their tastes.  I'm still 
annoyed at the guy who, maybe ten years ago, refused to believe my 
reaction to a jazz masterpiece recording that was played in our 
presence.  My reaction was, "Like 99% of jazz, that did nothing for me 
whatever."  He apparently thought I was only _pretending_ not to like 
it because I was a classical snob.

I can think of a couple things about G&S that might be relevant.  
First, these works are operettas rather than operas, and if your taste 
runs to through-composed operas I can see why you might find such 
choppy, jaunty works beneath you.  (For my part, I dislike almost every 
_non_-G&S operetta I've heard, because I find them schmaltzy, which G&S 
never is.  Also, their books and lyrics are pathetic next to 
Gilbert's.  Many Savoyards are incredulous that I don't love "The Merry 
Widow" or "Die Fledermaus".)

Second, there are many, many bad performances of G&S out there, often 
by the same companies that put out good ones.  The Stanford Savoyards 
just put on the second best "Iolanthe" of my experience.  This is the 
same company which, a few years ago, did a "Pirates" in which not only 
did the pirates mill around like a bunch of dispirited lugs, but when 
the Pirate King, during his solo song, leapt across the stage onto a 
(fake plastic) rock, it _slid out from under him_.

So there is a possibility that you've only seen bad performances, or 
that the bad ones spoiled you for the good ones.  But there's no way to 
prove this experimentally, so it's just a suggestion.

response 160 of 221:

May 11 19:02 UTC 2000

jazz is ok as background music =}

I have my own things about which I'm cult-like, mostly fringe rock music that
few people empathize with, I think everyone's cult-like about something.

response 162 of 221:

May 12 14:46 UTC 2000

I grew up seeing G&S performed by the 8th grade at our local high school, one
per year for around a decade.  What they lack in trained musicians such
performances often make up in enthusiasm.  And Gilbert's humor is often at
just about an 8th-grade level.   8-{)]
For that matter, I was in Yeoman in 8th grade - so I didn't *see* that one.

response 164 of 221:

May 15 07:14 UTC 2000

  I'm a liberal and I adore Gilbert & Sullivan. I also have no idea of what
a Savoyard is. I also like Die Fledermaus, maybe because I, too am batty. ;)

   I love all things British except Gentleman's Relish, which is comprised
mostly of anchovies. Wait. Let's not go into the food thing.

   There probably is no hope of me ever being refined. I own a copy of The
Mikado, and HMS Pinafore. I can sing the Captain's song. I'm learning Sir
Joseph's song. I collect stamps with the First Frump (the Queen) on them. 

  Pass me a warm beer.

response 166 of 221:

May 16 01:08 UTC 2000

I have a 19th c edition of the Bab Ballads.  Does that
qualify me?

response 168 of 221:

May 17 17:36 UTC 2000

>I think everyone's cult-like about something.

Moderation in all things.  Including moderation.

"Savoyard", for those that don't know the word, is the term for a G&S 
aficionado.  It comes from the Savoy Theatre, the original home of the 
D'Oyle Carte Company, which the G&S operettas were originally written 
for.  (And it's called the Savoy Theatre because it's on the site of the 
Savoy Palace, where the Princes of Savoy (in Italy) stayed when they 
came to London in olden times.)

I'm often inclined to think that the true mark of a Savoyard is that 
they not only know nothing from "Utopia Limited" and "The Grand Duke", 
but that they have not the slightest interest or curiosity in them.  
Savoyards often have amazingly narrow tastes: they want to hear the same 
seven G&S masterpieces - half of their total output - again and again, 
with no interest in whatever else these guys may have written.

Fortunately they're not all like that.

Why do I dislike most Wagner?  It's not because I prefer Italian opera: 
I have no taste for Italian opera.  It's not because "the symphony 
entered the opera": in fact, I _like_ it that way, and my reaction to a 
lot of Wagner is "this is beautiful orchestral music; now if only those 
superfluous idiots would stop trying (and usually failing) to sing over 
it."  It's not the length: if Bruckner had only written a 5-hour 
symphony, I would listen in rapt adoration.  And it's not because I 
dislike all Wagner: in fact, _Das Rheingold_ is one of my favorite 
operas.

And why is _Rheingold_ my favorite Wagner?  Because it has no Wagnerian 
love scenes in it.  I hate Wagnerian love scenes (including platonic 
father-daughter love scenes like the one in _Walkure_): they are the 
embodiment of what I dislike most in late Romantic movement: heaving, 
overwrought, agonized, overlong, unlimited and uncontrolled.  By 
comparison Tchaikovsky is a model of classical restraint.  Mahler sounds 
like this too, much of the time, and I don't like him either.  Anyway, 
_Tristan_ is the Wagner opera with the greatest quotient of Wagnerian 
love scenes, and it is accordingly the one I'd avoid with the longest 
pole.

response 170 of 221:

Oct 21 05:03 UTC 2000

Three weeks ago, Leslie & I saw a production from the new Arbor Opera
Company, staged at the auditorium of Pioneer High School.  
This was Donizetti's LUCIA DI LAMMERMOOR.   The story, set in 
Scotland, is about poor Lucia, who loves one man but whose brother 
forces her to marry another.  As is usual, the corpses pile up.  :)
 
The three lead roles were pretty well sung.  Arbor Opera's goal is 
to present performance opportunities for young singers.  The opera 
was produced on a shoestring budget of about $30,000, if I remember 
the news story correctly, with about half of that going for the 
orchestra.    The biggest lack was projected titles; I hadn't seen an
opera without projected titles in 10 years, and I found that I missed 
a lot of the story.  Biggest example would be Lucia's aria from the 
first act, sung to the statue in a fountain and foreshadowing all the 
deaths to come.   I had no idea what she was singing about.
 
I'd encourage opera fans in Ann Arbor to turn out and support the 
company's future efforts, just to keep a small local company going.
This production was comparable in overall quality to the University 
of Michigan School of Music productions.
 
-----

Coming up in Ann Arbor:  UMichigan's student production of Verdi's
FALSTAFF, which I need to get a date (and tickets) for.  It's 
sometime in November.
 
Coming up in the review queue:  our doubleheader weekend in Chicago, 
with "The Great Gatsby" and "Queen of Spades."   Also, UM Musical Theatre's
production of Gershwin's "Of Thee I Sing."   I will get caught up, I will 
I will I will...

response 172 of 221:

Oct 21 21:05 UTC 2000

  This talk of fall opera productions is making me homesick, since it's
  reminding me that I won't be getting back to western Michigan to catch
  Opera Grand Rapids' fall production, which usually occurs around this
  time of year.

  Having heard Leslie's high praise for the Seattle opera company's Wagner
  productions, I tried to talk my few social acquaintances out here into
  checking out the first production in the cycle with me earlier this fall
  but couldn't talk anyone into it..  I now regret not going by myself, but
  it was a busy week, etc, etc..

response 174 of 221:

Oct 22 02:20 UTC 2000

(er, "wander over to the School of Music building..."   sheesh)