response 150 of 186:

Aug 20 15:40 UTC 1995

How often are such complaints filed, Audrey?  Are you aware of
any having been filed?  What did the Ethics Committee do about it?
(And what, by the way, does ethics have to do with it?  My impression
is that the therapists who've been involved in this are incompetent
or else badly in need of therapy themselves.)

response 152 of 186:

Aug 23 17:11 UTC 1995

You have raised some interesting points, Michael, in your last two statements,
and while I want to address them, I don't want to reiterate much of what has
been said before in this discussion.

As you, yourself have pointed out, research in memory is in its early stages.
 The reliability of recall of repression of repeated traumatic experiences
has not been scientifically validity at this time.  Researchers are working
on the issue.  It would be premature for any wise person to take a definitive,
dichotomous stand until the data is in.  

Re: why do I raise the issue of Ethics. . .yolu, yourself stated in item 110
that some of the instances of "induced recall of memories" may be a result
of the "personal motives" of some therapists.  If that is proven, it would
constitute an ethical violation, at least of the standards established for
Psychologists by the American Psychological Association.  

Re:  How often complaints are raised with Ethics Committees - in order to find
this out you would have to contact the Ethics Committee of each of the
subspecialities of the mental health professions.  You need to know that
Ethics complaints can only be investigated for members of a particular
organization by members of that organization.  In other words, the Ethics
Committee of the American Psychological Association cannot open a case
involving ethical questions about a social worker or a psychiatrist.

Re:  The number of cases of therapist induced false memories being in the tens
of thousands - I need to see the documentation and derivativeof such numbers
before I respond to that point.  Anything stated like that on television, I
think it wise to verify objectively.

response 154 of 186:

Aug 27 21:33 UTC 1995

Aaron, I reiterate, there is no such thing as a "false memory syndrome" 
emphasis on the word syndrome.  A syndrome is a grou of signs and symptoms
that *collectively* indicate or characterize a disease, psychological
disorder, or other abnormal condition.  Confabulation is a cognitive *process*
or symptom, if you will, which differs from a syndrome.

Secondly, I don't understand the relevance of your questions, "Which
therapists regard themselves and the techniques that they use as incompetent
or inappropriate?" 

response 156 of 186:

Aug 28 13:38 UTC 1995

[Btw, the answer to Aaron's question, Audrey, is "none of them, of course."
Think about it.

Also, why the fuss over "false memory syndrome"?  Even if you think the
terminology is unscientific, you can't deny that the phenomenon exists.
Call it "FMS" in quotes, if you like, to indicate that you don't think
the terminology is quite correct.  The last thing you want to imply is
that because it hasn't been given a name yet by your profession, it
doesn't exist.  The credibility, and in many ways I'm afraid the future
of the psychotherapy profession depends on how you all collectively
deal with this problem.  If you remain in denial, or try to minimize it
or gloss it over somehow, your future patients will turn their backs
on you.]

response 158 of 186:

Aug 28 20:22 UTC 1995

One thing for sure, Michael, is that I am not in denial, certainly not with
regard to the issues being discussed here.  I do not, for a moment deny that
there are some "memories" which may be confabulated ,as Aaron puts it.  I do
not also deny that there are some memories which are encouraged by some
therapists, some of which may have occurred, and some of which, may not have
occurred.  I am not in a position to make judgements a priori about which is
which unless all the facts come out.  Unless a complaint is filed and
carefully investigated, and unless the behaviors being complained about are
carefully and correctly defined and spelled out.  What you call something very
often defines what you look for, what you investigate, and subsequently how
you investigate.  It also effects how you treat the behaviors.

When you suggest that we "psychotherapists" deal with the problem, continue
with the thread and give some suggestions of what you think we should do. 
You have never mentioned the state licensing Boards who actually have the most
direct power to oversee what "psychotherapists" do.  Again, in that case the
pychotherapy professions are divided into individual subgroups with, for
example, Psychologists having no control over the social work domain (nor
should they have in my opinion.)  

Jump in any time, Mary.  I am interested in your thoughts.

response 160 of 186:

Aug 29 15:03 UTC 1995

I paid a visit to The Self-Esteem Shop yesterday to pick up a 
copy of _The Courage to Heal_, by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis.  
Bass and Davis are on their Third Edition now: the text has been 
revised in an effort to prevent lawsuits, and they've added a 
reply to their critics (the early rumblings they were just 
starting to hear in 1993 when the book was published) called 
"Honoring the Truth."  

All I've done is skim a few sections, but my initial impression 
is that Bass doesn't seem in it for the money, or to maximize her 
patient load, as she's been accused of being.  The book is 
addressed to incest survivors, and the tone is consistently one 
of caring for their feelings.  She truly wants them to stop 
hurting and get on with their lives.  She never takes off the kid 
gloves.  She even goes so far as to say that some of the 
information in the "Honoring the Truth" section might be 
distressing enough to cause setbacks in your healing process, and 
that you can complete the healing program without reading this 
section.  A nice lady.  

But it would have been a better book, in my opinion, albeit a 
much shorter one, if the authors had simply accepted that their 
readers were indeed incest survivors, and limited themselves to 
presenting their program for healing.  It's the "how to tell 
whether or not you're an incest survivor" stuff that's so 
questionable and that's gotten them in so much trouble.  Didn't 
have to happen, but it's too late now.

response 162 of 186:

Sep 1 12:43 UTC 1995

There's an essay on this subject in the 8/31 New England Journal
of Medicine.  The author teaches at Harvard Medical School, as I
recall, and serves on the board of False Memory Syndrome Foundation.
The presence or absence of false memory syndrome from textbooks and
diagnosis code listings is obviously a non-issue for him.  The
commitment of many therapists to uncover "repressed" memories in
their patients, whether or not such memories are there to uncover,
is a major issue for him, however.  One issue he doesn't address
is what motivates these therapists.  I don't think I've read
anything on this subject.  Has anyone else here?

response 164 of 186:

Sep 2 15:40 UTC 1995

re #162:  Typically, I think you will find their motivation to be the
          same as Bass's.

re #163:  Was that the Kelly Michaels case?  A distinction should be drawn
          between the daycare cases and the "repressed memory cases" -- the
          dynamics of the situation are quite different.

response 166 of 186:

Sep 3 02:14 UTC 1995

I see some similarities in the fact that, in both kinds of situations, legal
action is taken against someone, initiated by the accusations of others,
regarding incidents which may or may not have actually occurred.  And in both
types of situations, the accusations may have been "encouraged", fostered or
promoted by the method of questioning of a mental health worker.

response 168 of 186:

Oct 1 23:29 UTC 1995

Here, for your consideration and discussion, are excerpts from the Michigan
Psychological Association's Position Paper on Recovered Memories of Sexual
Abuse:

1.  The sexual abuse of children and adolescents represents a significant
concern to psychologists who seek to address the damage caused by sexual abuse
and to prevent it.
2.  On the basis of long clinical and research experience, it is apparent that
in the majority of cases sexual abuse is remembered, not forgotten.  However,
a handful of published reports of aggregate data gathered from therapy clients
and from other individuals identified as victims of early secual abuse
indicate that in a minority of cases, victims of adults report that there were
periods of time during which they did not remember all or part of the abuse
they experienced.
3.  It is unclear from any available scientific evidence thus far what
accounts for thpse reports of lack of memory.  Specifically, it is unclear
whether these reports represent ordinary forgetting, repression, psychogenic
or dissociative amnesia, or the voluntary or semi-voluntary suppression of
memory.
4.  Some research has shown that it is possible to create illusory memories,
or psuedomemories, in some individuals under some circumstances.  To date,
the mechaniusms by which this occurs are unclear.  The extent to which this
occurs in real life is also uncertain.
5.  At the present time there are no scientifically valid criteria that would
generally permit the reliable differentiation of true recoverd memories of
sexual abuse from pseudomemories.
6.  It is of great concern to psychologists that many reported recovered
memories of early sexual abuse involve the use of invalid or nonvalidated
techniques for the recovery of memory.


. . . . .
8.  Psychologists also recognize that psychological techniques by themselves
cannot provide definitive evidence or proof of the actuality of sexual
incident that is in dispute.  Legal standards of evidence for sexual abuse
should not differ from those used in other allegations.
. . . .
10.  Psychologists recognize an obligation to use our assessment and
therapeutic techniques in a way to prevent harm to our clients and to others
affected by our actions.

response 170 of 186:

Oct 31 14:36 UTC 1995

Btw, Audrey, I meant "you" plural are in denial, meaning you 
therapists.  I don't know to what extent you personally are in 
denial, but Anne Wilson Schaef, the author of _Co-Dependence: 
Misunderstood - Mistreated_, would probably say that you are in 
deep denial.  She writes: "Most mental health professionals are 
untreated co-dependents who are actively practicing their disease 
in their work in a way that helps neither them nor their clients." 

All *I* meant was that your profession has been the agent of 
injustice to innocent people and continues to be so; and that once 
you focus on the case histories, you realize that there is a core 
of responsibility which you (plural) continue to deny.  You can't 
begin the process of recovery as long as you remain in denial, as 
Anne Wilson Schaef would no doubt say.  

(And frankly, saying "I am not in a position to make judgements a 
priori about which is which unless all the facts come out," when the 
facts are there for you to examine any time you please - that does 
kinda sound like the "d" word.) 

response 172 of 186:

Nov 2 01:01 UTC 1995

Double ack! - especially to the breaches of logic.

response 174 of 186:

Nov 2 14:27 UTC 1995

[I couldn't resist quoting from Schaef's book, if that's 
what all the "acking" is about.  Personally, I think Schaef 
is full of baloney, but I have to admit is was kind of 
refreshing to see her take a break from sniping at patients' 
families to take a shot at their therapists.  You never know 
where them loose cannons are gonna point next.]