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Grex > Coop8 > #52: Adding .yeswrite and .nowrite to the write program | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 315 responses total. |
chelsea
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response 150 of 315:
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Jun 26 18:48 UTC 1996 |
Disagree.
I'd also suggest that if folks don't care to comment on #145 it's
not as much apathy about the issue as much as they didn't read
#145.
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robh
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response 151 of 315:
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Jun 26 19:01 UTC 1996 |
Or at least, they tried reading #145 and bogged down somewhere
in the middle.
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draven
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response 152 of 315:
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Jun 26 19:31 UTC 1996 |
Disagree.
You need to research your Holier Than Thou responses a little better,
kerouac.
M-Net's staff have always been held on a rather short leash. Many
people never volunteered due to that. Over the years, the leash got
shorter and shorter. As it got too short for people, they left. Now
that the board wants to hold staff by the neck, they've all left.
It didn't start like it is now. It started with little things like
the ideas you are proposing. Things like always being available for
people to tell you to do things you'd already be doing if they'd stop
littering messages all over your screen. Or the 'Do it my way or leave'
attitude. A problem with that attitude is the staff usually knows more
than the person giving the order. They demand the staff does it one
way when the staff would otherwise do it the right way.
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davel
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response 153 of 315:
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Jun 26 20:18 UTC 1996 |
(Do I need to read 145 to know I disagree?)
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scott
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response 154 of 315:
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Jun 26 20:27 UTC 1996 |
Disagree.
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jenna
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response 155 of 315:
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Jun 26 21:07 UTC 1996 |
Tottaly and completely disagree and think Kerouac is a nut-case
who doesn;'t seem to understand what a non-proit organization
is or the budject of grex or the reason the staffers are staff.
they care about grex, one way or another. grex is all about
caring about grex.
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kerouac
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response 156 of 315:
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Jun 26 21:29 UTC 1996 |
I wouldnt be saying these things if I didnt care about grex. I dont know
if grex could survive a large scale staff turnover because at this point
it is too dependent on three or four people. Sooner or later the day
will come when there will be a need to entice people to be on staff and
that means providing the right environment.
Maybe it doesnt matter if grex is not in any danger of ever getting any
larger, and it may not be. I said repeatedly that I dont think m-net';s
board has handled its staff well either. Where I fall is somewhere in
between grex and m-net. No micromanagament where possible but at the
same time insist on recognition of the fact that the relationship between
staff and the system is official. As official as being on the board,
which is also voluntary but at least that relationship is acknowledged
because it involves specific positions (president, treasurer .etc)
Why should a member of staff be less accountable than the treasurer or
other board officers? A staffer can play with code, risk d oing all ki
nds of damage to the system, and nobody can say anything about it because
he's a volunteer and can do whatever he wants. For grex's own protection,
staff should not be defined as "volunteers", even if they are essentially
volunteering their activity.
It cant hurt to spell all these things out.
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rcurl
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response 157 of 315:
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Jun 26 21:34 UTC 1996 |
Disagree
Its not that Grex is non-profit - it is that it is all volunteer. In a lot
of dealings in volunteer organizations I have found that what motivates
volunteers is a combination of a personal interest in what they do and
appreciation from others. Neither of these last forever, so volunteers
usually "burn out" or just fade away. Volunteers don't want to be paid,
because if they were their freedom would be restricted.
That said...it is not a bad idea to have some simple job descriptions for
volunteer work, so that both the volunteer and the organization will know
when maybe a new volunteer should be found for the work. That is the most
difficult issue in a volunteer organization - to know when, and to know
how to actact when, a volunteer fades and is an impediment rather than an
asset. The resolution of this is the most often cause for bad feelings in
a volunteer organization.
It is also appropriate to compensate volunteers for "out of pocket
expenses". This is not payment for the volunteer work, but just makes it so
that it does not also cost the volunteer more than *time* for their work.:
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rcurl
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response 158 of 315:
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Jun 26 21:44 UTC 1996 |
# 156 slipped in. in response to that - officers, board members, and staff
(and others, too, such as fws, etc) - are all *volunteers*, and subject to
the same issues. Their responsibilities are, of course, different, and the
system depends upon them in different ways. I do agree with kerouac to the
extent that the roles of officers, board members, staff, fws, and anyone
else that does something to benefit Grex - should be recognized and
appreciated.
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scg
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response 159 of 315:
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Jun 26 21:47 UTC 1996 |
Disagree.
I think Grex is providing the right environment for staff at the moment, or
at least a much better envicronment than what kerouac is proposing would be.
I say this as a staff member who wouldn't be willing ot be a staff member if
staff were dealt with the way kerouac wants us to be.
I would not be willing to be a staff member if staff were treated as
contractors. Kerouac may find this hard believe, but most staff members, me
included, have other things that we also do, such as jobs that actually pay.
I contribute what time I feel like contributing to Grex, because I want to
help. I'm not willing to sign a contract obligating me to do that.
So being on staff is a great privlidge, eh? It's somethign that we should
be willing to give things up in exchange for? I'll have to remember that next
time I'm heading out ot the Dungeon to fix some Grex problem at 3:00 am, when
I'd much rather be going to bed, so that users like kerouac can have a usable
Grex.
BTW, FWIW, re the comment about staff carrying pagers somewhere back there,
there is a list on the Dungeon wall of staff phone numbers and pager numbers
(and even one staff member's cell phone number). I don't think it gets used
all that much, and certainly many of us on the list wouldn't want to be
getting pages from random users about Grex problems, but there are times when
it is useful for staffer staffers to be able to get help from other staffers
in a hurry. That doesn't mean that people are really "on call", nor would
most of us agree to be "on call," I think, but our internal staff
communication is pretty good.
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kerouac
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response 160 of 315:
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Jun 26 21:48 UTC 1996 |
rcurl has a good idea. It seems logical that noone should have root
without a specific description of the duties he/she is carrying out which
require it. Like sys tem administrator, conference administrator.
Programming guru. Whatever. Although some people fill these specific
funtoins, I dont sense too much of a heirarchy.
Perhaps there should be a staff chairman who assign duties to the rest of
staff, and would have veto power in staff disputes. Security could be put
in so only the staff chairman has the ability to change the root password
or do certain other particularly sensitive things.
Sooner or later grex may end up in a situation like m-net where they hd
staffers who were not necessarily ln a friendly basis with each other.
Egos get involved, people dont act professionally, and finally people
leave. Spelling the roles out could help avoid this.
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draven
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response 161 of 315:
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Jun 26 22:03 UTC 1996 |
No it doesn't. Bureaucracy doesn't help a thing. M-Net tried that
and has staff accounts for over a dozen seperate jobs. Problem is, jobs
overlap and conflict and then you have a real fight on your hands.
Of the people listed in M-Net's staff list, only two remain active.
While no written contracts have been signed, that doesn't mean there
are no consequences. If root messes with an account, they are no longer
root. If an FW goes on a killing spree, they are no longer an FW.
Of all the rules you can make, using common sense is the best rule of all.
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adbarr
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response 162 of 315:
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Jun 26 22:16 UTC 1996 |
Grex asks for donations of money, equipment, and volunteer expertise. Are
these separable? Is there any inter-dependence? If the volunteer staff
do not need the members, the money, or the equipment, then why the continual
litany of requests. I thought the concepts here involved all elements. Perhaps
not. Is Grex a system that, in reality, says "Give me money, but don't ask
me what I will do with it?" I am confused about the real roles here.
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scott
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response 163 of 315:
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Jun 26 22:19 UTC 1996 |
Staffer *do* have an official job description: "Staff". Staff keeps Grex
running, subject to personal schedules and skills. Hiring a staffer isn't
like hiring a janitor. Staffers have some pretty serious skills.
Board has some power over staff, as far as who *is* a staffer. We've never
had a staffer "go bad", and if it did happen, other staff would move *very*
quickly to revoke that staffer's access.
As both a Board member and a staffer, I think the current situation is about
the best we could have. A staff chairman wouldn't help. We've got some
*extremely* good techies here, and the last thing we want is to start
demanding bureaucracy from them. The system we have *does* work! If it
didn't, Grex would have died long ago.
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scott
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response 164 of 315:
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Jun 26 22:21 UTC 1996 |
Adbarr slipped in.
Grex works like PBS. We ask that people who like what we do to support what
we do. If we stop doing what people like, people may stop supporting us.
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adbarr
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response 165 of 315:
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Jun 26 23:03 UTC 1996 |
Please understand. I do not intend to denigrate staff and the wonderful
work that they do. I am not calling for extra layers of bureacracy, and
I acknowledge that the "system" does work. I do think there is some
confusion about the definition of "the system". I am wondering about the
need for the board, members, and all those layers, when, in reality, they
are basically not relevevant, except in relation to what Staff is willing
to do. That is fine, but I just think it should be on the table, clear and
plain for all to see, and evaluate. We beg, you dispose.
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scg
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response 166 of 315:
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Jun 26 23:07 UTC 1996 |
A lot of what staff does is somewhat randomly assigned -- something needs to
be done and somebody has time to do it, so they do it. Other than people not
having to get to things they see that should be done if they don't want to,
that's not too different from some parts of real system administration jobs,
so that really doesn't have much to do with whether we are volunteer or not.
Then there are other things which are to some degree assigned to people. We
don't have a staff chairman handing out assignments, but we do have staff
meetings and a staff conference, where often it will be pointed out that
something needs to be done and somebody will volunteer to do it.
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brighn
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response 167 of 315:
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Jun 27 03:55 UTC 1996 |
Disagree with #145
Richard, you've stated elsewhere that you're not trying to be
repetitive and bullying, you just want to state your views for
the benefit of Grex. You've stated your views. No-one's stepped forward
to agree with you. I think the best strategy for Grex right now
would be for you to drop it. That's just my opinio n, though.
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srw
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response 168 of 315:
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Jun 27 04:21 UTC 1996 |
Disagree with 145. As a staff member I feel about the same way John remmers
does with one exception. My perms are on. However, sometimes when people write
tel or talk me I just ignore them. Usually this is because I am busy and I
rarely bother to change my perms as I switch back and forth between the things
I do.
I have full respect for any staffer who wants to leav perms off. I leave mine
on only because I enjoy an occasional chat with someone from cyberspace.
I don't get offensive requests often, but would probably shut off my perms if
I did. I am really sorry that folks like Valerie have to keep their perms off
just because they are female. I consider this to be grossly unfair to them,
not grossly unfair by them.
I keep my helper flag off. I have decided that I don't have time to provide
that kind of support for grex. This is my decision. Other non-staffers and
of course our illustrious HelpMaster are very effective in that role.
I would never accept compensation. I already have a job.
Staffers all have different roles. They even change from time to time.
Many overlap. Many staffers do multiple things. Some of these are already
codified.
Postmasters: mdw, mju, popcorn, srw, steve, robh
Webmasters: robh, srw
cfadms: partyadms: etc.etc.
We have some who can tweak code in the kernel, others specialize in security
issues, others yet are hardware experts. Many of these sets intersect.
We don't really have any need to further layer buereaucracy on top of this.
We do meet ftf (most of us) and discuss responsibilities. We can usually agree
who should do what because we all share a desire to have Grex be the
best that it can be.
Kerouac, your ideas never cease to amaze me.
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void
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response 169 of 315:
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Jun 27 04:56 UTC 1996 |
disagree.
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tsty
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response 170 of 315:
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Jun 27 10:39 UTC 1996 |
kerouac, i presume that no one would suggest that you do NOT have grex's
best interests at heart. someone might puncture that assumption but
for now i'll maintain it.
recognize also, though, that organizations design their on 'operating
system' and that a 'one OS fits all' is antithetical (sp?) to the
planet.
frankly, i fly the flag by design in .login ....and get "interrupted"
nearly every time i login, including this one, if that matters fi.
maybe we are not 'on'simultaneously but yu have never yeled for help
from me - perhaps someone else though.
multiple dozens (maybe hundreds by now, i won't keep count) of logins
have gotten help from me and, i suspect, all of the other helpers, too.
recognize: division of labor
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popcorn
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response 171 of 315:
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Jul 1 03:58 UTC 1996 |
Re helper flags: Yes, robh does a wonderful job as Grex's helpmaster, but
frankly we need a lot more helpers. I've been posting statistics in the
helpers conference, and there are weeks when fewer than half of all help
requests are answered. If you're interested in turning on your helper flag,
add a "mesg -h y" to your .login or .profile file. Most help requests are
pretty easy to answer (the two I've gotten this evening are "can I look back
at the log from a closed party channel?" (no) and "Can I telnet from AOL to
Grex?" (no)). The more helpers we have, the fewer requests anybody will have
to answer, and the more helpees will receive help when they need it.
Thanks to all the helpers out there who *do* answer help requests. It makes
Grex a better place to be.
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tsty
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response 172 of 315:
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Jul 1 19:38 UTC 1996 |
ummmm, methinks that having anyone able to fly a helper flag is
not int he better intersts of grex, nor the ppl seeking help.
isn't here some sort of standard for being *able* to fly help flags?
or, at least, some 'recognition of capability?"
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robh
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response 173 of 315:
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Jul 1 20:00 UTC 1996 |
Is there? No.
Should there be? Probably.
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jenna
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response 174 of 315:
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Jul 1 23:57 UTC 1996 |
wh you can always defer them to someone else, an experiences user might
at least know who might know how o answer a question
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