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Grex > Coop7 > #106: Retiring the ID of someone who has died | |
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| 25 new of 326 responses total. |
steve
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response 150 of 326:
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Oct 12 18:06 UTC 1995 |
Well Katie, in a sense they are unique. There can be only one
katie@cyberspace.org becuase of the impossibility of resolving issues
like mail, etc. There might be 1537 other "katie" accounts on
machines on the Internet, but then those machines are all unique
too--there can't be two cyberspace.org's for example.
What is happening here, I think, is that people are beginning to
see logins as extensions of themselves. The people who don't see
the need for preserving ID's are, it seems to me mostly older, and
can remember life before computers and the Internet and all that is
associated with all this.
But as time goes on, more and more "younger" people are using
computers, and have used them for a more significant fraction of
their young (and more impressionable part) of their lives. An ID
means little to Rane, as he uses the computer as a tool to do
something else. The ID is the method in which he gains access
to the system, and little more. Kids though, start using computers
and start to see themselves "through" their login in cyberspace,
and associate that ID with their identity.
I've only recently begun to look at things this way. Whether
or not this is good, or if it will continue or whatever is beyond
me. I want to do some more thinking on this. Maybe this is old
news to others?
So, while I'm trying to ponder all this, the rational part of
me completely agrees with Rane--it isn't useful to attach such
feelings to a string of ASCII. But others see logins as something
much more, and thus I think in cases of death we need to be able
to retire such items from time to time.
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selena
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response 151 of 326:
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Oct 12 20:50 UTC 1995 |
In response to numbers 143, and by agreement, 144..
*I* would miss anne dearly! *And* I would greatly object to anyone elde
getting her login! So, saying "nobody would" is being false.
Same with my login. DOes it matter that it's my name? Why, if
logins are just "strings of ascii" to you, does it matter at all
whether or net one is available.
Katie- would you like me to get your login, if you died, *could
not* keep logging in <you'd be dead, right?>, and had it reaped?
You and I do not tend to see eye to eye.. But what if now I
was "katie@cyberspace.org"? What if I started sending out flamemail
with that login attatched to it, to people you like, even on systems
other than grex, who would have to assume I was still *you*?
You all right woth that possibility? Fine. I'm not.
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rcurl
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response 152 of 326:
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Oct 12 21:41 UTC 1995 |
That is arging that NO logins ever be reused. Exactly the same thing will
happen if someone stops using grex, their account is reaped, and another
person selects the same logins. Some old (!) users will undoubtedly
recognize the login. And that new person would become known on grex
and maybe elsewhere. Is this a problem? I think not.
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steve
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response 153 of 326:
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Oct 12 22:47 UTC 1995 |
No Rane. At last I don't see it that way.
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kerouac
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response 154 of 326:
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Oct 13 01:30 UTC 1995 |
A while back in this item, I requested that if I die, my login
be reaped immediately. Keeping a login around after said person has
died is a form of denial. When death occurrs life goes on, and there
are those who can deal with it and those who cant. I do not expect
my family, when I die, to ask the government to kill everyone they
see on the street who has my name or looks like me. Might be a nice
memorial to my memory of course, but now lets be reasonable! Life
goes on.
This may sound a little harsh but as nice a person as Barbara was, if you
trying to memorialize all that was her, you are trivilizing her memory.
You are saing that Barbara was not a person. She was a login. She was
Mlady. And thats not who she was. That was just a name.
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steve
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response 155 of 326:
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Oct 13 01:50 UTC 1995 |
The other side of that argument would be that since no one is
actually inside of Grex, the login is the closest counterpart to
the person, and thats why they might want it somehow delt with.
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scott
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response 156 of 326:
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Oct 13 02:13 UTC 1995 |
Gick. I'm gonna leave my organs *and* my login(s) for the benefit of others.
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selena
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response 157 of 326:
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Oct 13 03:02 UTC 1995 |
Alright, damnit!
Kerouac, if I felt this was at all "trivializing" Barbara, do you
dare think that I'd do it? Also, rane, if someone LETS their account get
reaped, that's their problem! WHat if they don't *want* to let it reap, but
are *dead*?
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lilmo
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response 158 of 326:
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Oct 13 03:50 UTC 1995 |
Re #148: I never said you didn't, Rane, but there is no other
rcurl@cyberspace.org; how more unique than "no other exists" can you get?
Re #150: Also, for non-local callers, logins are even MORE linked to
identity, since ALL I know about srw, or steve, or popcorn, rcurl or selena,
sidhe or even mlady, is their login, and what they write. I can't put a RL
face to any of those; the login is all there is.
Re #152: Actually, that argument, extended STILL would not apply to all
logins, or even most logins, and maybe not even many... it would apply only
to those that are, or would be, easily recognized. For example, you said
earlier that you have had dozens of logins, but I only recognize one of them,
so only that one could be a problem for you if someone else used it to give
you a bad name.
Re #154: No one here claims that all Barbara was was her login, least of all
her friends !! Their request is to "memorialize" the means by which they
recognized her, not her essence.
Re #155: Exactly, steve; that's just what I have been trying to say.
Re #156: Fine, scott, but not everyone feels that way.
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remmers
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response 159 of 326:
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Oct 13 12:51 UTC 1995 |
In the event of a user's death, I think it would be reasonable to
maintain the login for the normal three months, so that a new user
who might happen to take it doesn't start getting mail intended
for the former user, and to allow time for any heirs who might
have a legitimate interest in their files to make their claims
known. (It would *not* be a good idea to simply give their saved
mail and other files to someone who pops up claiming to be a
friend, as someone suggest earlier.)
After the three months has elapsed, I think the login should
be recycled like any other unused login id. I feel like Scott in
#156. If someone wants my login after my demise, they're welcome
to it, and am flattered at the thought that someone would want it.
All the arguments I'm reading about how the login id somehow
represents the essence of the person are too metaphysical for
me and--to be frank--strike me as more that a little bit silly.
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rcurl
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response 160 of 326:
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Oct 13 15:46 UTC 1995 |
A three month period sounds reasonable to me.
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katie
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response 161 of 326:
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Oct 13 18:57 UTC 1995 |
NO, selena, I wouldn't mind. I'd be DEAD.
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mlady
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response 162 of 326:
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Oct 13 19:33 UTC 1995 |
Yeah, well, does the thought bug your alive self? I bet it does..
Kerouac- just because you are leftist and hitler was rightist doesn't
make you two different when it comes to the mistake you are making-
putting an ideal before the suffering of people who don't believe in it.
HEIL!
This problem I'm having is from more than a nine-month period.
You want this to happen again? Is that what you really want? That's
what you'll get.
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kerouac
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response 163 of 326:
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Oct 13 23:28 UTC 1995 |
I have a compromise to this mess, although might have to ask Marcus
if its feasable. Why not when a user dies, amend "newuser" so that
when someone requests "dead person's login", they get this:
The login "mlady" belonged to a former user of this
system who is now deceased. Please be aware that use of
this login could cause some confusion.
Do you still want "mlady" as your login? (y/n)
This could be a default set in the same way as when newuser defaults to
"such and such login is in use as a mail alias"
I think it would avoid any sticky policy issues and I think in the
vast majority of times people would pick other logins. This isnt the
same as setting aside a deceased person's login but it could have the same
effect.
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headdoc
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response 164 of 326:
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Oct 14 00:32 UTC 1995 |
I, Audrey J. Bricker, being of relatively sound mind and body, hereby
relinquish my loggin of "headdoc"upon my demise, to anyone with the
following credentials: the individual has got to be a psychologist or a brain
surgeon. The person who utilizes the loggin of "headdoc" may not, however,
use the appellation "Audrey J. Bricker" under any circumstances without the
express approval and written consent of my heirs.
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katie
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response 165 of 326:
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Oct 14 02:50 UTC 1995 |
NO, "mlady", it doesn't bug my alive self. It takes a lot to bug my
alive self.
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remmers
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response 166 of 326:
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Oct 14 11:04 UTC 1995 |
Re #164: What if their name really *is* Audrey J. Bricker? :)
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kerouac
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response 167 of 326:
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Oct 14 21:04 UTC 1995 |
Okay...revised compromise suggestion:
Someone in "newuser" requests a deceased person's login, what if they
got a prompt like:
The login "mlady" was previously used by an either deceased or
former user of Grex.
Please be aware that use of this login could cause confusion and
that you may recieve misdirected mail. The staff of Grex
strongly suggests that you choose a different login.
Do you still want "mlady" as your login? (y/n)
I think this is a fair compromise. It should go a long way towards
eliminating most instances where logins of old users get used and it
avoids any sort of official policy.
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wisdom
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response 168 of 326:
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Oct 14 21:37 UTC 1995 |
Hey, now that would work. I would not have choseb mlady if I
knew it was going to be a problem.
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marcvh
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response 169 of 326:
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Oct 14 22:04 UTC 1995 |
I would probably delete the "either deceased or" portion. "Former"
suffices without looking quite so needlessly disconcerting, since
people leave Grex all the time for reasons other than death. Ideally,
some objective indication of things like how long ago this login was
active would help, but all of this would be quite nontrivial to code.
Dunno about "strongly suggests"; something more like "You may wish to
consider..." seems a strong enough wording.
The loginid of the person most important to me in the world has at
various times been used by other people. Somehow I've managed to get
through the experience without feeling the need to hassle anybody about
it. The addresses, telephone numbers, and other identifying information
of loved ones get reused by perfect strangers. It occasionally causes
confusion, but outrage?
I'm pleased to see that mlady(2) has selected a new login.
(and I won't complain that I'm confused and think it's actually Joseph
Wisdom, an M-Net user from long ago; don't think he was ever on Grex.
There is, after all, nothing new under the sun.)
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dpc
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response 170 of 326:
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Oct 14 23:20 UTC 1995 |
I like the compromise. This whole discussion just goes to show how
increasingly "real" someone's loginid has become.
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selena
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response 171 of 326:
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Oct 15 04:28 UTC 1995 |
I like the compromise, with leaving the wording as was in #167.
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popcorn
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response 172 of 326:
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Oct 15 06:20 UTC 1995 |
Re 150 (where STeve commented that younger people have had access to computers
for all their lives, so they see logins differently than older people) Also,
in general, younger people tend to be a lot more freaked out by death, while
older people have enough life experience to cope better with the concept.
Re 169: Joe Wisdom had an account on Grex as "arkie". I don't think he ever
had an account called "wisdom".
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remmers
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response 173 of 326:
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Oct 15 11:05 UTC 1995 |
Seems to me that getting the login of someone who's still alive but
has merely let their account on grex lapse has much more potential
for hassle and confusion than getting the login of someone who's
deceased. We don't bother to warn people about the former, and in
Grex's 4 years of existence that's never been a problem although
I'm sure it's happened a number of times. So why all this fuss about
the latter? Sorry folks, but I just don't see it.
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marcvh
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response 174 of 326:
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Oct 15 17:36 UTC 1995 |
(Re #172: point is, there are enough people and few enough words that most
any choice of label is likely to be similar to, or identical with, something
that somebody has used before.)
Does anybody have statistics on reuse of login ids? (Probably not.) I'd
guess that expired login-ids would be grouped something like:
95% were from people who didn't use Grex much and let their account die
because they thought it was just too slow or something
4.9% were from people who used Grex actively but got bored or lost
network access or something, but are remembered by people
0.1% were from people who died a tragic death while still active Grex
users
(I'd be interested in some numbers that are not wild guesses. :-)
Any system that does not distinguish the first category from the second
and third seems likely to do as much harm as good. Doing so in a fashion
that is not labor-intensive seems tricky at best.
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