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Grex > Agora46 > #131: New York City to open nation's first all-gay public high school in the fall | |
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| 25 new of 241 responses total. |
jep
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response 147 of 241:
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Aug 22 23:04 UTC 2003 |
I *said* I shouldn't have taken a knife to school. I got lucky, got
some help (or impressed some bad kids -- I don't really know), and what
I did actually helped me, without causing me any damage.
Todd, it's clear as can be that you've never been in similar
circumstances, and don't have the slightest clue what it's like. For
me, getting bullied was something I dealt with most school days from
2nd to 8th grade, and got no help from *anyone*. If you think I was
wrong for finding a way to deal with that, and succeeding in a way that
got no one else hurt, then I can't imagine what your thinking must be
based on. If you think I should have just endured it, and that novomit
should have too, then it can only be that you lived in a different
world than I did.
I'm sure it'd have been better to stand in and get the stuffing beat
out of me in 3rd grade, like in a Tom Sawyer book or something,
and "earned the respect of my peers", but not every kid is the kind who
can do that. I wasn't. Some people aren't tough. Maybe there ought
to be a place in the world for those people anyway.
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tod
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response 148 of 241:
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Aug 22 23:34 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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i
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response 149 of 241:
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Aug 23 00:12 UTC 2003 |
Re: various "go tell the cops and they'll make it all better" responses
When i was about a high school sophomore, my folks read my younger brother
& me the riot act about *any* interaction with with the cops in the next
town. Seemed that the men in blue were a bit out of control over there,
and quite willing to drag a teenage boy they didn't like downtown and beat
him half to death. After several further "bad P.R. incidents" with not a
hint of self-doubt (let alone remorse) from the blue gang, the political
pressure got bad enough for something to be done. But about 20 years
later i heard a talk by the then-current police chief of that town, and
he was politely bragging about the rough-&-ready way that his force dealt
with young suspects and offenders.
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mary
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response 150 of 241:
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Aug 23 00:45 UTC 2003 |
When an angry student brings a gun to school he puts lots
of innocent students at risk. That's wrong. I don't care
how victimized you feel. If you can't rally enough
intelligence to find a better way out then you've got
bigger problems than the bullies.
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happyboy
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response 151 of 241:
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Aug 23 01:13 UTC 2003 |
_no shit!_
lol
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russ
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response 152 of 241:
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Aug 23 03:48 UTC 2003 |
Has anybody considered the message that the schools and police are
sending *to the bullies* by refusing to intervene?
No?
Let me offer a model, then. When bullying and harassment are not
checked in the bud, they become ingrained patterns of behavior.
What's right becomes whatever they can get away with, and that
encompasses a lot. When nobody treats the bullies as if they're
doing anything wrong, they come to rely on bullying to get their
way. They are on a track to become habitual predators.
What's the result of this in adult life? Spousal abuse, for one
thing. I'll bet dollars to donuts that the murderer of goose's
acquaintance grew up as a bully, just like novomit's nemesis.
What would have happened if that proto-murderer had been faced down
a few more times by a victim with a weapon? Might have convinced him
that it was too risky, and shifted him off that track. Some innocent
might be alive today if other long-ago innocents had used force to
underscore a demand TO BE LEFT ALONE, and the sum total of human
misery might have been reduced.
And that's why I find the criticisms aimed at jep and novomit to be
hollow and hypocritical. The most basic right *is* the right to be
left alone, and that is the moral distinction between the bully and
their victim. The victim does not go out looking for a bully, and
the moral right to self-defense does not have exemptions for age,
institutions or introversion. The crime in both incidents was that
the institution failed to act when it would have made a difference.
In at least one case (just among the people in this discussion) that
failure probably cost an innocent's life; that's not including the
tragic loss of human potential due to dropouts, depression and even
suicide caused by bullying.
If our institutions can't get along without abusing (directly or
indirectly) their charges, they ought to be on trial for the results;
we shouldn't be accusing the victims and excusing the perpetrators.
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jmsaul
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response 153 of 241:
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Aug 23 03:48 UTC 2003 |
Re #150: I'm not saying it's right. I'm asking Todd what he sees as the
alternative.
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novomit
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response 154 of 241:
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Aug 23 12:11 UTC 2003 |
Forget it guys, you know its better to suck it up than to defend yourself.
Some us weren't brought up in a glass bubble and don't have the option of
having someone come to our aid everytime we snap our fingers, but that's a
small excuse. Gangsters like us just never learn, do we?
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tod
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response 155 of 241:
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Aug 23 13:15 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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jep
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response 156 of 241:
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Aug 23 13:48 UTC 2003 |
The cops weren't in school during my childhood. Teachers and
playground supervisors were in charge, and it was their job to deal
with interactions between children. These days, they actually do so,
which I think is a good thing.
It never occurred to me, at age 13, to go to the police to report in-
school harrassment. You're saying I should have known I should do
that, and not taken the knife to school. Once again, I agree taking a
knife was a bad idea. I knew it was wrong at the time. Anyway, I
also knew at the time that going to the police would not be an
effective way to deal with being bullied. *The authority figures who
were there every day didn't act.* Why would the police?
Do you know what the police would have done? They'd have laughed it
off. If they didn't, they would have talked to teachers and
administrators, and *then* laughed it off *and* I'd be the kid who
went to the police.
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jep
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response 157 of 241:
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Aug 23 13:50 UTC 2003 |
It's almost 30 years since I took that knife to school, and the events
of the time, and leading up to that time, are as real to me now as
they were when they happened.
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tod
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response 158 of 241:
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Aug 23 13:51 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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novomit
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response 159 of 241:
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Aug 23 15:38 UTC 2003 |
Tod you're still living in dreamland. The cops wouldn't have done a thing.
They would have laughed it off like everyone else. if the instructors and
principals didn't listen why would the cops? And at any rate, going to the
cops is usually not the first thing that a kid thinks of. Filing a police
report occured to me in the same way that flying to Mars would have occured
to me. If they had been brought in, there would have needed to be witnesses
for any charges to be filed, and no one was going to risk getting on the bad
side of these guys. If there were bruises, i would have had to prove that they
were the ones who had done it. It would have been a great exercise in getting
those guys more pissed off at me.
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gelinas
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response 160 of 241:
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Aug 23 15:47 UTC 2003 |
(I don't remember the police ever being called in to any of my schools,
but had they been called in, 'twould have been done by the teachers
or principals, NOT the students. Note that both people have said they
mentioned the problem to their parents, who ALSO did not think of calling
the cops.)
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klg
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response 161 of 241:
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Aug 23 19:52 UTC 2003 |
Why wouldn't one go to a lawyer. Would not that get the attention of
the school board??
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scott
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response 162 of 241:
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Aug 23 22:20 UTC 2003 |
Typical conservative elitism from klg. Why not just hire a bodyguard if your
kids can afford lawyers?
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gull
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response 163 of 241:
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Aug 24 02:31 UTC 2003 |
Re #124:
> Ever think that maybe by pulling a gun on this thug, you gave him the
> idea that a gun will get him anything he wants?
I'd say he'd already figured out he can get anything he wants just by
threatening people. This isn't doing the kid any favors, since it
won't work so well in the "real world" unless he's either unusually
strong, or unusually rich.
Re #131:
> If novomit tried to get help, and couldn't, and couldn't come up with
> another way to deal with his situation, what was he supposed to do?
> Just suck it up?
I hear suicide is a popular option these days. :P
Re #134: The cops don't exactly take schoolyard bullying seriously.
There's that "boys will be boys" attitude at work. Besides, it's
almost always one person's word against another. Often bullies are
athletes, the sons of rich people, or other generally well-respected
kids who know who to act nice around. In a small town like the one I
grew up in, this amounts to a "get out of jail free" card.
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jep
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response 164 of 241:
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Aug 24 03:24 UTC 2003 |
Well, I have to say... one of the kids who used to beat me up would
chase me down every recess, and tell me "I'm going to teach you a
lesson," or "You're only getting what you deserve", or the like. It
seems a reasonably good guess that he got those phrases from home, and
was just passing on what he was being taught. He was definitely not
from a wealthy family.
Another kid who used to beat me up on the playground in elementary
school, later saved my life. I don't think anyone else in the world
is aware of this any more, but he did; I was drowning and he pulled me
out of the pool. (It was an outdoor gravel-pit type pool.) Several
years later, as a teenager, I ran across him again, he was a runaway
and was running with a cousin of mine. I brought them to my house, my
parents gave them food and called my cousin's parents, and I believe
they ran off again. I never saw the former bully again. I should ask
my cousin -- who's been in and out of Jackson Prison -- if he knows
whatever became of the other guy. I have somewhat mixed feelings
about him, but overall I hope he overcame the odds and turned his life
around.
I don't think that kid was from a wealthy family, either.
The kid who caused me to take a knife to school is also known to me to
be from a family with not much money.
The first kid later became a friend of mine; a somewhat uneasy friend,
but someone I could get along with. My relationship changed
dramatically with the second kid as well, as I related. I don't
recall ever talking with the third kid again. I avoided him, and
perhaps he avoided me as well.
So there you go. None of those three became outstanding athletes.
None had much money. I'd be inclined to believe all of them were
abused at home and striking out at anyone else they could. I don't
have any grudges against any of them.
Me, I was an easy target because I had a pattern of being an easy
target. I'd like to see anyone in a pattern like that, get help to
get out of it.
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tod
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response 165 of 241:
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Aug 24 13:42 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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happyboy
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response 166 of 241:
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Aug 24 17:31 UTC 2003 |
we could have a potluck/bakesale fundraiser
and rename the school: "Dylan and Erik Elementary"
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slynne
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response 167 of 241:
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Aug 24 18:35 UTC 2003 |
Actually, the only really effective way to deal with a bully from my
personal experience is to ignore them. Of course, one cant ignore them
unless one is in a situation that will cause the bully to leave them
alone. Sure a gun or knife might work for this but it is dangerous. The
really best way is to make a lot of friends. That is what novomit and
jep should have done. Gone out of their way to make friends. Friends
are a hell of lot safer than a gun or a knife (and more fun at parties
too)
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russ
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response 168 of 241:
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Aug 25 03:01 UTC 2003 |
The examples above show another danger of non-intervention: what
if the bully's behavior is a symptom of another problem, such as
abuse at home? They don't deserve to go through that any more
than the victims at school.
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anderyn
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response 169 of 241:
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Aug 25 14:31 UTC 2003 |
But there are problems with your solution, too, slynne. There are those of
us who just don't make friends easily. I sure don't, and didn't. I was lucky
in that I was a girl, and while I went to over nine different schools in my
elementary/high school experience (three in my third grade year, alone), most
bullies don't usually pick on girls, physically, and I would just retreat into
my books if it got verbal and ignore them.
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slynne
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response 170 of 241:
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Aug 25 15:03 UTC 2003 |
I know that there are some kids who dont make friends easily. It is a
lot easier for adults to spot *that* situation than it is for them to
see the bullying. It wouldnt hurt for parents to spend time teaching
their kids social skills. Sure, a lot of kids just naturally pick those
up but they are skills and they can be taught.
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anderyn
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response 171 of 241:
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Aug 25 16:01 UTC 2003 |
If you had my parents, you'd know that was a lost cause (them noticing me
having troubles and teaching me social skills). I think that it's a good idea
for parents now to try to do so, but some parents are not going to be able
to do it for their kids.
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