response 146 of 186:

Dec 4 18:47 UTC 2003

a) yes.

I'm not sure it's possible to please everyone, but yes, definitely.  What
changes do you think would make non-Ann Arborites feel welcome?  Are you
proposing not having a walk or a "spotted" item?

response 148 of 186:

Dec 4 19:24 UTC 2003

Re 146) I'm not proposing that. I like those items. And even if I 
didn't like them, remmers makes a good point. I don't have the answers 
right now. Maybe this is something that isn't possible. Or maybe there 
are avenues we can discuss to bring these changes about. And I don't 
think this is a board/staff issue. Maybe more of a community issue. 

And you're right. You can't please everyone. I don't expect every 
person that comes to grex to love it for what it is. And I wouldn't 
suggest trying to please everyone.

One thing I think I'd like to start seeing is "advertising" bbs and 
party a little more to the general user who logs in. Maybe in the 
motd? (I believe mnet tried a similar experiment, but I'm not sure of 
the details, maybe tod, jp2, jep or other mnetters could elaborate? )

Also, we do get a lot of newusers, but most of them come here for a 
free shell account to try Unix skills or for the email. I'd like some 
way to make these users aware of the community side of things. True, 
the newuser program does say some stuff, but face it, no one really 
reads through all that stuff. 

Neither of these ideas are aimed at anything specifically non-local, 
but they have the potential of getting more new people involved in the 
community which could bring in diversity to the interaction we have 
here. 

(Also, I haven't paid attention to the "Other conferences on grex" 
item in agora, but I think we need to mention coop there, to have more 
people involved in the actual working of this system, or at least 
aware of it's existance)

response 150 of 186:

Dec 4 19:48 UTC 2003

Well, let me talk about the "visibility" issue.  As far as I remember, I have
been to one event where grexers were gathered.  I went on a Grexwalk because
coyote's mother woauld not let h im meet an internect acquaintence
face-to-face unless she were with him.  We all three agreed to meet at a
Grexwalk.  

That's it.  That's my "visibility" on Grex.  I think Clees has been more
visible than I have.  

But I don't think "visibility" is really the issue.  I have never met
anyone who is running for the Board, except for polygon.  In most
elections, I've never met any of the candidates.  So their being "local"
or "visible" has not been a criterion.  

Indeed, most of the people here have never met me, and were I running,
would have to make up their minds about my suitability for the postion
based on how I behave on Grex, not what they see me do IRL.  My influence
in the Grex community is based on how I behave here, not on some
geographical context.  

So, no, once again, it is not hard to be accepted into this community.
They don't even have to meet you anywhere but on-line.  And you don't have
to have been here since the olden days.  People are having a hard time
being accepted because they do not subscribe to the same values and
behavior of this _already_established_community_.  If you want to be
comfortable in a group, you fit in.  If you want the group to be radically
different from what it is, don't expect to feel comfortable, and don't
expect the community to work very hard at making you feel comfortable.  

What I do like is the way people's ideas are being evaluated separately
from their behavior.  I do not have to vote for someone whose behavior is
disruptive and causes contention.  But it's nice to see this community
examining the ideas carefully, and discussing and moving on them in spite
of the source.  

response 154 of 186:

Dec 4 23:31 UTC 2003

Re resp:145:
> One friend (who no longer uses grex from what I can tell) told me he
> didn't like interacting with other people especially in party and on
> bbs because all of them seemed to be talking to each other about things
> they knew and people they knew.

I've heard this complaint about every online chat system I've been on.  I
think it's natural that people tend to talk to their friends more readily
than they talk to strangers, and I also think it's natural that newcomers
perceive this as cliquishness.  I don't think it's unique to Grex, however. 
Getting accepted by any new community takes effort and persistance.  I've
lived in my apartment building for two years and I don't know any of my
neighbors.  Is it because they're unfriendly and hate newcomers?  Nah, it's
because I've never made the effort.


When I started using Grex I didn't live in the A^2 area.  I can't say I ever
resented the local items, even if I didn't always find them interesting. 
(For years I simply forgot the 'grex walk' and 'grexer spottings' items in
every agora, since they were irrelevent to me 600 miles away.) People seemed
to accept me into the culture even though I wasn't local, and even though I
was a much more annoying person in 1994 than I am now. ;>

One of the things I've really missed, since the Internet wiped out most
local dial-in BBS's, is the sense that I was communicating with real people
that I could conceivably meet on the street some day.  Grex still has that,
and I'd hate to see the local items go away just because they might make the
occasional newcomer feel a bit left out.

Grex's user base seems, to me, to be at least as diverse as it's ever been. 
Not only do we have people who are from other states and even other
countries connecting, some of them are even running for elected office!

response 156 of 186:

Dec 5 04:10 UTC 2003

Happy GreX staffers, its funny how you talk about the GreX community changing
in one sentence and in the next one saying how the system rules must never
change.

response 158 of 186:

Dec 5 04:44 UTC 2003

re:
> b) Is it worth it to make the changes (either in attitudes, 
> prices, general content etc) to make other people feel like they 
> belong?
> If the answer to either of these questions is No, then this 
> discussion need not be pursued further.

Whose attitudes?  We're all individuals, and Grex cannot change the 
attitudes of any individual, much less the whole community of 
individuals.

As for the prices, let's see some specific suggestions, along with 
the numbers of members at those rates that it would take to pay the 
bills to keep Grex running, and I'd be willing to run an experiment 
in which memberships are offered at that rate for one month, and if 
the membership income for that month exceeds both the average income 
for that month and the average and actual expenses for that month, 
then let the experiment continue for as long as it continues to 
succeed.

Regarding general content:  The entire content of Grex is whatever 
any user interested enough to post something makes it.  If you want 
to post an item you think would be more welcoming, do it!  But don't 
expect someone else to do it for you, and don't expect anyone else 
not to post something because it may not be ideally welcoming and 
inclusive.

There is something going on in this discussion which really annoys 
me, and I'm surprised no one has commented on it.  Jamie has made 
some very interesting contributions along with all the annoyance he 
has generated, and I have yet to see any remotely reasonable idea he 
has presented be ignored simply because it came from him, but the 
thing that irks me is that he is being held up as an example of 
what's wrong here when what he represents is the idea that the ends 
justify the means, and that no matter how flagrantly one violates 
the basic rules of this community, if one appears to have good 
intentions then it's okay.  That is just plain wrong, and no matter 
how valuable or interesting the results (and frankly I myself would 
like to see some changes made on the basis of those apparent 
results), it doesn't change the fact that it is wrong.

Is it really that strange that I doubt the goodness of the 
intentions when the methods are so blatantly antisocial?

cross slipped in, and to cross I say: remember, the president is 
only for one year, staff is for as long as you choose to do it.  If 
you can't handle a difference of opinion with someone just because 
she's president, you're probably better off getting out.  That said, 
I'd like to see you give it another shot.

response 160 of 186:

Dec 5 11:36 UTC 2003

Re 158> I agree that what Jamie did was wrong. What annoys me is that 
whenever we try to discuss the points he brought up about the users 
feelings, people revert back to the means he got them and try to gloss 
over the fact that his data has some potential. Point in note is your 
comment. There's a whole item devoted to his account being locked out. 
You can go whine about his means there. No one is justifying his means 
in this item (at least I'm not). And I wouldn't like to see the ends 
forgotten because of the means he chose to take. We can make some good 
happen from his results and I don't want to see that lost.

As for what could be changed, I agree that attitudes are individual 
characteristics, prices may be rock bottm (I'm not one ot dictate 
prices, I don't know all the costs that go into grex so I couldn't 
come up with a air price scheme) and general content changes as it's 
up to the users. I don't expect you or me or Mark or the board to 
change all that. All I'm saying is recognise that there is a problem, 
and you do have some sense of responsibility as a collective to help 
change it. I don't expect every user/member to fall in with this idea. 
However I would like to see discussions brought up on how we can help 
change. I'll be frank here Eric. From all the responses in all the 
items in this cf, yours seem the most resistant to the idea. All 
you've done is whine about how some elements are vandals and you 
haven't gone beyond that. As I said somewhere else, get over the chip 
on your shoulder.

"Is it really that strange that I doubt the goodness of the 
intentions when the methods are so blatantly antisocial?"
I can understand you ignoring Jamie, polytarp and naftee. But what 
have I done that constituted anti-social. In your zeal to prove Jamie 
a bad person, you're losing sight of what other people are trying to 
do here.

response 164 of 186:

Dec 5 15:56 UTC 2003

re resp:162: Jamie, I don't think you have any complaints about the 
focusing of this item on accounting, since it's something you brought 
up.

This is the item where you're trying to tell people why they should 
vote for you.  I think it's appropriate for people to ask you about 
events in which you've participated or been involved, when those events 
might influence how people view you as a candidate.

I think it's right for mynxcat to bring up things you've said in other 
items, about Grex's shortcomings and problems, and what you would like 
to do about them.

You will have no disagreement from me, though, when you say cross's 
issues are inappropriate drift in this item.

response 166 of 186:

Dec 5 16:36 UTC 2003

re 157
> the president of the board of directors specifically encouraged a vandal I
had locked > out of the system. 

No, the president did nothing of the sort.  You were responsible for that
entirely, by unlocking the dah and polytarp accounts.