response 136 of 254:

Jan 26 04:50 UTC 1999

Congrats Jon, I'm proud of you.   Now I'm going to say something you've heard
from me before and likely don't want to hear - get out of LDS, find (ask God
to lead you) a fellowship with people who don't try to take the judgement seat
into their own definition - when did God say "okay - you people judge
yourselves and repress those who don't fit into your ideals" - answer - never
did, never will.   You and Julie have a foundation - a faith and a spiritual
path that transends a religion.  You don't need the LDS to have that faith
fed.  You can (and ultimately will) find a more beautiful place to nuture and
grow in your spiritual manifestation... and I am certian that it will not
involve judgement by any man or woman... we're only here to love one another
and be truely helpful.  Now, having said that, I do believe I have in some
way judged the LDS - well, I'm not perfect either.   I do, however, love you
all unconditionally.  I have no love for sin though and I believe the
oppression that is caused by the actions of religious tyranny are nothing more
than grand scale sin.

<keith steps off the soap box>

peace

response 138 of 254:

Jan 27 23:33 UTC 1999

I am really sorry this came out into the open, folks.  Really.  Keith and I
have been friends for a while, but things went sour when religion entered the
picture.  The only thing I will mention is that it happened when he talked
with some Latter Day Saints (LDS-- in case Keith didn't explain, we're
commonly known as Mormons) that were bitter from some really bad experiences.
Initially, he had been curious about what I believed in, but now he thinks
my church is oppressing me.

I can understand that kind of reaction.  My sister left the LDS faith some
years ago because of sexuality issues.  She still considers herself a Mormon,
but some of her beliefs are different than mine, some that allow her to
reconcile the church's stance against homosexual sexual relations.  I have
also met some bisexual Mormons who left because of real or perceived
intolerance-- in this area.  Some have never returned, and one occasionally
goes to church.  She believes that attendance isn't necessary, which is fine,
but I take the encouragement to go every week because I need it.

It has never been official policy to harass or persecute g/l/b individuals.
Although recently the President reiterated that same-sex sexual relations
could not be allowed, he did say that such individuals were to be welcomed
and accepted.  There is nothing wrong with being gay, lesbian, or bisexual
in the LDS religion, but practice is not permitted.  Most of the intolerance
that does happen is unnecessary fear-- members who are straight, especially
the men, worry that they might or might have been an object of desire or
affection.  Also, local leaders are lay clergymen and are quite human.  They
have had no special schooling nor formal training.  I had been told that there
were g/l/b individuals who came out and remained celibate (or claimed het
privilege, if they were bi) and yet received disciplinary action from the
church.  It is possible that they had participated in one affair, and hadn't
mentioned it, or that the leaders were trying to persuade the individuals to
keep a low profile for their own safety and well-being in the congregation.
Granted, I doubt that such individuals would cause a problem, but there might
be members who would not understand and who would cause damage to that
individual.  Confidentiality would only be for the protection of the g/l/b
individual.

It isn't right, it isn't fair, and it shouldn't happen.  However, there are
some traditionally religious people who cannot accept differences of
sexuality, and not everyone has satisfactorily reconciled doctrine with that
difference.  Julie and I may walk a lonely path, but we are not alone.  There
are some g/l individuals who somehow 'gained' an attraction to the same sex
through spiritual experiences (but remember, only about 10% of the population
is completely homosexual), or who just chose to be a 'breeder,' if you will.
I have a friend whose mother married a man and raised a traditional family
even though she had no sexual attraction towards him.  She told her she felt
it was the right thing to do.

Ironically, sometimes the community does some mudslinging.  The website for
the L.A. chapter of LDS Affirmation asserts that anyone who has thought they
were gay or lesbian and then married someone of the opposite sex and stayed
married were really bisexual.  To me, that smacks of a 'Het Privilege'
accusation, and as I read on, it seemed like they didn't care much about
bisexuals, especially those in monogamous opposite-sex relationships.

In my case, my local leaders were pretty understanding when I came out to
them.  One thinks I'm really not because I didn't flirt with the young men
of the congregation.  I know when to cover my ass, however.  I had a crush
on one and then I wound up loathing him when he became my roommate.  Beyond
that-- the selection was lousy.  (I live in a cow town.)  But he did
understand my situation because his son is gay.

When I did my ordinances in the LDS Seattle temple, and then returned there
to be sealed (married for eternity) to Julie the following week after that,
I felt an awe and an incredible peace that I had never known.  I learned
things that I did not know before.  Suddenly, my burdens were lighter, and
I am now able to bear them-- even my deepest fears.

I was liberated when I began to accept my sexuality.  But I was uplifted--
sanctified-- given peace when I entered the temple.  Every time I go back,
the things that hurt me and give me pain melt away when I go inside.  It is
difficult to explain since LDS temples are very sacred to me and I keep the
details of what I feel very, very close to my heart.  I have to muster up a
lot of courage to explain that I do my best with what I have, and that I would
not trade freedom of sexuality for the strength I receive from the temples
of my faith.

I am a somewhat shy person by nature, although I've learned to be outgoing
when I need to be.  Still, Julie is so outgoing by contrast that I often hang
back when she steps forward.  My feelings are very private, and so I share
them with people I think I can trust (although I can sometimes be too
trusting).  My class is the largest group of people I have come out to, and
in general, I only come out to people I trust.  This often protects me and
I value it, since I am very sensitive.  I also am very non-confrontational,
so I am not really an activist.  I prefer to do things quietly, and although
I enjoy acknowledgment, it's fun to be behind the scenes.  I don't like to
stir up controversy, because I think people are more willing to consider an
issue if it is gently and thoughtfully given to them, as compared to riling
them up.

I have been told that I have a lot of courage to do what I do, and all I can
say is that I'm just doing what I feel is right for me, even if it isn't
popular or supported.  I once cared what others thought of me, but I love what
I love, and I know what I know, and I don't have to abandon it for anybody.
I know I may be walking the line, but I'll do it until I figure out what this
all means.  I believe in everyone's right to choose what makes them the
happiest, and I do so myself.

That said, Keith, you are *way* out of line, and you know quite clearly where
I stand.  Hopefully there will be no more miscommunication or emotionally
charged arguments.

response 140 of 254:

Jan 28 05:49 UTC 1999

Again, by LDS, Keith is referring to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints, commonly known as the Mormon church.  As I said, it's tough for g/l/b
members because of conservative doctrine, but the attitudes aren't as
close-minded as he'd have you believe.

I suppose religion and sexuality are issues some folks haven't worked out.

response 142 of 254:

Jan 28 07:25 UTC 1999

That's why I bit my lip.  It was your argument, and as I knew you would, you
two said everything that needed to be said.  ;-)  <applause>

response 144 of 254:

Jan 29 00:59 UTC 1999

I was just mad because he felt he had to give the same advice in a very public
forum.  Not everyone necessarily responds to this conf, but anyone can see
it via backtalk and the Web.  I thought, argument aside, the action was in
very poor taste.

response 146 of 254:

Jan 30 12:09 UTC 1999

        You'd think people would accept that you'd just know whether your
religious beliefs were opressing you or not.

response 148 of 254:

Jan 30 22:50 UTC 1999

Well, I can imagine people not realizing there's an alternative to sitting
there being oppressed, or not having the courage to leave a religious group
they don't agree with; I also don't see Jon as being in either category.

response 150 of 254:

Feb 1 02:21 UTC 1999

lol  That's funny, Sarah.  I loved that film.

It's so wonderful having a place where I can come out of the closet 
without actually being out, yet.

"Did you see him oppressing me?"

response 152 of 254:

Feb 2 07:09 UTC 1999

  It's "Help, help, I'm being *re*pressed."

  Omni flings gypsi across the room

response 154 of 254:

Feb 3 07:11 UTC 1999

<hangs head in shame since she is an avid Monty Python fan>

Sit on my face and tell me that you love me.
I'll sit on your face and tell you I love you, too.
I love to hear you oralize
When I'm between your thighs
It blows me away!

Sit on my face and let my lips embrace you.
I'll sit on your face and say I love you truly.
Life could be fine when we're both sixty-nine.
We can sit on our faces in all sorts of places and then
We'll be blown away!

This is studied proof that bookworm loves Monty

And they ran out of food so they had to eat Sir Robin's minstrels.
And there was much rejoicing. (yay)

<babble=off>  Sorry, I got carried away.

response 156 of 254:

Feb 3 22:25 UTC 1999

I LOVE that movie.  It's so freakin WIERD!

response 158 of 254:

Feb 3 23:12 UTC 1999

By the way, it's really interesting to see the reactions I get when I 
wear my leather gear to classes.  I wear handcuffs on the left 
epaulette, but some of the professors and a few of my church friends 
think I'm into motorcycles or something.  Well, I'm not yet, since I 
haven't had lessons past riding a dirt bike and can't afford a Harley or 
a Honda Goldwing.  However, many of my classmates have caught on to the 
other implications.  One correctly guessed my fetish for bondage, 
another assumed I was into S & M, and today two students were comparing 
me to the Village People and making fun while singing "YMCA."  Damn, I'm 
gonna punch folks until they start singing "Macho Man."

In fact, one of them thinks I need fashion help, especially after she 
saw the duds.  This freshman fancies herself Ms. Glamour and said she'd 
buy me some clothes if she were to win a million dollars.  She asked 
which Village Person I looked like, and I responded, "The Leather Man, 
of course."  Few people remember the time during the early 80's when the 
whole group was doing the leather look, but they were fading out by that 
time.  Well, I figure I'm just too butch for her-- my wife likes it.  
But my wife has never really been a girlie girl anyway, unlike our 
ultra-fashionable friend.