response 130 of 357:

Jan 13 14:39 UTC 2004

I would prefer that jep's items be restored with his posts, my posts, slynne's
posts, and the posts of everyone else who asks being deleted before they are
restored.  Without copies being sent around.

That would make me feel good, because we would have tried to "fix" an abuse
of staff power and keep Grex closer to how it would have been if this had
never happened.  

HOWEVER I don't believe that this fix would "put the genii back in the bottle"
as someone said.  I think more harm will be done to the civility of Grex and
the tone of discourse by that action, than harm will be done to "free speech"
if we -don't" restore them.  

I think janc is on the right track when he says that we can encapsulate this
special circumstance, and still have a clear policy that says it can't be done
again in the future.  

response 132 of 357:

Jan 13 14:53 UTC 2004

I think this is more like a loophole in a law.  You change the law to
close the loophole.  You don't go back and try to undo everything that
happened because of the loophole, and argue that unless you're
successful the loophole can't be closed.

response 136 of 357:

Jan 13 16:54 UTC 2004

Re. 145:  but he said LIKE a loophole.

response 138 of 357:

Jan 13 17:24 UTC 2004

There were two staff members who stated outright that items would be 
deleted by request of the person who entered them.  I don't recall the 
item number but it's willcome's item in which Valerie's actions were 
first discussed.  These statements were disputed, but they were made.  
There was definitely reason to believe it could be that way.

It was *done* for valerie's items.  There was a precedent for deleting 
items.

I acted directly because of those two facts.  I never asked for those 
items to be deleted before last week.  You'll just have to take my word 
for it that I had long wished they could be deleted.

I didn't do anything wrong.  I've explained in thorough detail my 
thoughts and all of my actions that led to the items getting deleted.  
I've provided the e-mails I sent and all of the responses I received.

= - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
Entirely aside from the actual argument, is the effects of the style 
being used to counter my request.

I am a person to whom Grex is part of the real world.  I don't have an 
extra personality I only use on-line.  Grex is part of where I live my 
life.  It hurts me to have people calling me "unethical" and a "vandal" 
and things like that.  I do not deserve any of that.

Some of you have known me for 15 years; enough to know my real 
character flaws (of which I have plenty) and what kind of person I 
really am.  I am not a scam artist.  I am not a vandal.  I am not 
unethical.  I do the best I can.  And you know all that.  But your 
labels may stick with me forever, because they are -- as you intended --
sensational.

Look at the responses of jaklumen.  He hasn't known me for 15 years, 
but is just sopping up these labels you cast around so casually.  Every 
time he sees my name, he's going to be thinking, "Oh, that's jep.  
Someone said he's unethical.  And called him a vandal."

What principle is it you're following when you do that?  I can tell you 
that.  The principle is, "At whatever cost, never lose.  Even more than 
that, never, *ever* retreat, no matter what."

This is just the wrong way to go about the discussion.

response 140 of 357:

Jan 13 17:49 UTC 2004

jep, I dont think you have acted unethically here. Nor do I think you 
are a vandal. 

I do admit to feeling *very* conflicted about this situation. On the 
one hand, I like you and I dont want to see you hurt. I dont think 
those items will hurt you but you clearly do. I respect your desire to 
have them removed. 

The folks who say that their words have been deleted and should be 
restored have a valid point though. Their words should be restored 
unless they give permission otherwise. I really would hope that all 
participants in that item would give you permission to delete their 
posts too. 

You should know though, that the liklihood of that happening increases 
if you ask them *before* this vote goes through. Because asking them 
afterwards has the message "I dont care enough about your feelings 
about your words to ask your permission to remove them. I am only 
asking you now because my attempt to force the removal without your 
permission failed". 

response 142 of 357:

Jan 13 18:29 UTC 2004

Exactly! He has yet to acknowledge that it was wrong to attempt to retain
a personal benefit based on a violation of grex policy. That is why I
proposed a "fine." It is a way to save face for all concerned, not
compensation for actual harm. It a way for jep to have his way while also
admitting it was wrong and caused harm to the core values of grex. 

response 144 of 357:

Jan 13 19:22 UTC 2004

Yeah the $fine stuff is just silly.

response 152 of 357:

Jan 14 10:37 UTC 2004

resp:138 Whoa, cowboy, just hold on right there.  If you really want 
to believe that, I'm sorry.

Yeah, I don't know you.  But is it possible for me to disagree with 
what how you did things without coming to the conclusion, "oh, gee, 
he's just buying into everyone's rant that jep is an unethical vandal?"
I think it could be.  By your same reasoning-- you don't know me-- I 
don't know why the hell you chose to single me out.

I am a father, and I hope I can empathize on some level.  If I 
understand things correctly, you want some control on how you want to 
discuss things with your son... to not risk the possibility of a lot 
of unpleasantness just land in his lap.

Honestly, I think scribbing out your responses in the item would have 
been the best way to go.  Apparently-- that didn't happen-- we are all 
dealing with this after the fact.

Again, I'm not sure why you see that I am projecting such unfavorable 
views upon you.  Granted, all I know of you is a father who obviously 
cares about his son (hmmm, there is a possibility that I might have a 
response or two in your items) and that the material that the items 
covered was about a very difficult time that you wish to put behind 
you.  You've said that restoring the items jeopardizes that-- that 
unscrupluous users will repost them to the forefront (do I remember 
correctly) and that it could be damaging to you, and your son... if he 
was to find it.  I think it was mentioned that your ex-wife *might* 
get a hold of it if she hadn't already.

I can understand all of that, and understand why the material should 
be gone.  Even if, theoretically, the material might have remained and 
no harm would have been done, you had very good reasons to remove 
it... and as best I understood, scribbling was the legitimate way to 
have it done.  However, a staff member intervened on your behalf, 
deleted everything, and hence the controversy.

I don't make decisions cast in stone-- I do try to get as much 
information as possible.  To be honest, John, I am sympathetic and 
empathetic, if you would believe that.  But I am also sympathetic to 
those who are examining the precedent this may cause, and 
unfortunately, because Valerie was involved and because of the 
controversy surrounding her own actions, well, I would like to push 
for a solution that keeps policy on an even keel... because I don't 
think any of us can tell what might happen in the future.

I know this must be terribly emotion-wrenching for you.  But I'm not 
thinking what you're claiming.  Much too simplistic.  At best, my 
opinion is that some decisions were made that weren't well thought 
out... maybe more on Valerie's part.  I also see that those decisions 
will have an impact on Grex policy... and what people decide will 
determine how things are run in the future.  I see two interests very 
much at seeming conflict-- a father pleading against restoration, 
arguing such is a foreseeable risk, and a group that argues 
restoration (with scribbling later) is the way to preserving policy 
for the future.  Not sure how to have the cake and eat it too... but 
solutions seem to be at an impass for the moment.