response 125 of 186:

Dec 17 04:33 UTC 1994

what ever you say, aaron.  The only points which seem to have much to do 
with the current discussion.
The text quoted earlier from the CourageNot the words of the co-authors, so
diference between editions is trivial. The co-authors have been working in the
mental health field for years, this in itself makes them mental health
proffessionals. The co-authors are too feminist for my taste, but this is a
matter of opinion. That is my main problem with them.

The above list of books was very interesting, would any one like to check for
accuracy in quotes used from other sources.  The misquote, oratleast out of 
context quote, could indicate a problem with some of the pro-FMS literature...
HOWEVER FURTHER CHECKING IS CALLED FOR BEFORE ANY CONCLUSIONS ARE DRAWN.

md, if you do pick up a copy of the Courage to Heal, the third edition has
a new section on the FMS debate, including a short history of child sexual
abuse as viewed by the mental health proffession,, a history of the term FMS
and the FMS foundation,as well as a bit about the survivor's perspective on
FMS. I think any one would find this new section very interesting.

response 127 of 186:

Dec 17 14:02 UTC 1994

I don't remember much about Courage to Heal except that it had two pretty
common effects, as I remember.
First, it made a lot of sexual abuse survivors feel validated about their
lives having been significantly impacted (Gosh, what awful grammar!), and 
willing to take the step of addressing the experience directly instead of
just taking aim at the later symptoms that came up, like sexual dysfunction
with a spouse, for example.
Second, it became somewhat fashionable for people with all sorts of problems
to wonder whether they had been sexually abused.  In my own experience, the
one person who I felt was really "getting off" on that train of thought was
gently slowed down by her therapist and no harm resulted.

These are both effects that happened with codependency, for example, or 
even alcoholism.  It wouldn't be a big deal if there weren't the possibility
of a false accusation coming out of a mistaken, overeager response to the
idea.

Just my thoughts.

response 129 of 186:

Dec 20 01:21 UTC 1994

That's interesting, because I find the idea that we shouldn't regard our
feelings as important to be as repressive a notion as there is.

response 131 of 186:

Jan 4 17:55 UTC 1995

The January 12 New York Review has a series of letters from 
various social workers, psychologists and psychiatrists 
attacking Frederick Crews' recent review of some books about 
recovered memory and false memory.  Crews' review took an 
anti-Freudian stance.  He accused orthodox psychiatry, as 
well as the incompetents and ideologues on the fringe, of 
causing the national tragedy of the imprisonment of innocent 
people because of iatrogenic "memories" of childhood abuse.  
Echoing Elizabeth Loftus, he equated the iatrogenic memory 
phenomenon with both McCarthyism and the Salem witch hunts.  

("Iatrogenic" refers to a pathologic condition caused by the 
intervention of a health care practitioner.  It indicates a 
condition which was not present or latent, and which would 
not have arisen otherwise, and usually carries an implication 
of malpractice.)

response 133 of 186:

Jan 4 20:08 UTC 1995

[Sorry.  Crews is being attacked for his anti-Freudian stance
and for his consequent extreme skepticism about "recovered"
memories.  He is sympathetic toward FMSF, and lays a tremendous
load of guilt on psychologists, psychiatrists and various
flavors of social workers who have participated in putting
people behind bars on the basis of "recovered" memories of
childhood abuse by adults in their care.  The exchange in NYR
is definitely worth reading, as it gives both sides of the
argument - five or six letters from therapists (and one patient)
defending their current practices, and a long response by Crews.
Crews, btw, is an English professor and literary critic who is
taken very seriously by the mental health profession because
of an orthodox Freudian biography of Nathaniel Hawthorne he
produced in the 1960s, which was hailed as a landmark in its
genre, and his subsequent recanting of his Freudianism.  In
addition, Crews is an excellent writer with a real gift for
polemics and parody, which gives him an unfair edge over his
opponents.]

response 135 of 186:

Jan 13 19:59 UTC 1995

e
i, it has been a while since i was on...long story.
I would like to make a quick note that I meant to make earlier.
FYI   I havve meantionedb before, I am a survivor of abuse.  However, I have
no personal stake in the false memory debate, the abuse was not from
family members.  Also , as for the earlier discussion of dlegatities, 
I don't have a stake in that either, the vast majority of the abusers were
legally minors, and there for difficult to hold responsible for such
behavior.
any way, just a side note, please continue with the current topic.

response 137 of 186:

Jun 22 11:57 UTC 1995

Human memory being what it is, I'll bet it does happen.
But your question was "Why couldn't [fms] happen to the
accused abusers?"  In order for an accused abuser to suffer
from false memory syndrome he or she wouldn't be repressing
memories of having abused someone, but rather remembering
having abused someone when in reality he or she never did
any such thing.  As unlikely as it seems, I'll bet that
happens, too.

Sidebar: On a recent episode of Absolutely Fabulous, Edina's
mother gets mouthy with her, and Edina says: "I'm undergoing
repressed false memory therapy.  I'll get something on you
yet!  You in a hood in the woods - it's all starting to come back."

response 139 of 186:

Jun 22 18:00 UTC 1995

I think that would be called a "repressed memory," meaning the event
actually happened, but you've never had any memory of it.  If you do
eventually recover a memory of it, it's called a "recovered memory."

response 141 of 186:

Jun 23 21:04 UTC 1995

"Repression is a common, normal occurrence"...You are aware,
I hope, that there's a little debate going on about that just now.

To iggy:

Second thoughts: After the patient has recovered the memories 
and accused her parents of sexually abusing her when she was a 
child, the parents invariably deny ever having done such a 
thing.  At that point, the therapist will say that the parents 
are in denial, or that they, too, have repressed the memories 
of those incidents.  In other words, for every patient who 
recovers previously repressed memories of sexual abuse, there 
will be one or more accused family members who are found by the 
therapist to have repressed the same memories.  So, the answer 
to iggy's question is that it happens constantly.  

Btw, actual child molesters tend to do a lot a plea bargaining, 
which is why so many of them end up back on the street after 
serving light sentences.  The innocent parents of patients 
whose "recovered memories" are false - ie, therapy-induced 
fantasies - invariably declare their innocence, then go to 
trial, and, if convicted, get nice long prison sentences.  

response 143 of 186:

Jun 24 14:24 UTC 1995

"False memory syndrome" is not a disorder that's been recognized
by the psychotherapy profession yet, according to one of the
responses up there.  As it's commoonly used, I think it does
generally refer to therapy-induced fantasies being accepted as
real memories.  From what little reading I've done on the subject,
I gather that many, if not most, "false memories" appear in the
patient's consciousness not as something you "remember" in the
usual sense.  If your reaction to the sudden triggering of the
memory of abuse was similar to your reaction when you're reminded
of someone or something you haven't thought of in a long time
(for example, someone mentions a kid you went to kindergarten
with and you say, "Oh, for heaven's sake, I haven't thought of her
in twenty years") - if it's that sort of reaction - then I would
be much more confident that it was a real memory of a real event.

response 145 of 186:

Jun 24 20:00 UTC 1995

[Didn't understand that.  What do "the limited capacity for
storage of material and underdeveloped retrieval capacities"
have to do with repression?  Also, I thought the reason most
people don't retain many memories from early childhood had 
something to do with conceptualization, not "storage capacity."
You can crawl past the same wastebasket ten times a day, but
if you don't know what a "wastebasket" is, and don't even know
enough other things to compare it to, then you're not going
to retain any memory of it.  (But it's hard for me to relate
to that, because I have a huge store of memories that go back
to at least six months before my second birthday.  Even as a
kid I realized that's a little strange, but there it is.  I do
understand that most people are quite amnesic about their lives
before the gae of four or five, and I think I understand the
conceptualization explanation for it.  er, "age")

Anyway, the debate I was referring to was the one currently
raging on the subject of repression itself.  Certain psychologists
and others are starting to contend that it doesn't happen at all,
or at least not anything like what traditional psychotherapists
have been imagining all these years.  If you really are a "head doc"
by profession, Audrey, I hope for your sake this debate quietly
goes away, becasue it could mean the end of a lot of careers.
I should amend that all the skeptics have done is ask for evidence
that repression happens and of what it really is; what they've
gotten back from traditional psychotherapists is such a jumble
of contradictory crap that all the skeptics have to do is point
to it and say "Q.E.D."]

response 147 of 186:

Jul 2 06:00 UTC 1995

re #136:  An additional factor you should consider is the amount of
          rationalization involved on the part of the offender.  (It
          didn't do any harm, the child was flirting, etc.)

          There certainly are offenders who claim to have no memory of
          documentable incidents.  Some of them may well be telling the
          truth.

re #139:  The broader term, "dissociation," may be more appropriate.

re #140:  That's far too broad a definition of "repression."  Your final
          assertion about repression does not accord with the literature,
          but may not be unreasonable if it is based upon your definition.
          (All people have memories of events that they haven't thought
          about for years.)

re #141:  I don't think a therapist would assume the parents were
          repressing memories.  Also, not all offenders deny their acts.

          Criminal trials are rare in "repressed memory" cases involving
          molestation, as prosecution is often blocked by the statute of
          limitations.  There have been a couple of homicide trials in
          the U.S., and some molestation trials in other countries, based
          upon "recovered memories."

re #142:  It depends.  There are documented cases of people who shopped
          around for a therapist who would diagnose them as having been
          molested as children.  md's comments are certainly valid.

re #143:  It is my understanding that the term "syndrome" was chosen because
          of its non-use in DSM-IIIR.

response 149 of 186:

Aug 18 16:45 UTC 1995

No, Michael, not "all" therapists out there.  Just the relatively few who are
either poorly trained, or unethical, or incompetent.  In the field of
psychotherapy, it is a "buyer beware" state.  There are many, many competent,
ethical, well trained therapists who never have, and never would engage in
the iatropic techniques used by therapists who "plant" memories in clients.
 In addition, most therapists are aware of how many problems in this area have
been caused by the linking of psychotherapy and the legal system.  

By the way, there is NO such thing as "false memory syndrome".  There is no
syndrome by that name.  This is another case of calling a symptom a syndrome.

I, also am concerned about those true victims of any form of abuse who may
be afraid to reveal their past because of the hoopla this whole thing has
caused.  I am glad that there is some relief for those who have been falsely
accused, but not for those who have had enough fears to keep them from
understanding their past.

One last thing, anyone who believes that a therapist has led them into
believing something which was harmful to themselves, can file a compaint with
the Ethics Committee of the therapists state organization.  That, or a
complaint with the licensing board in Lansing