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Grex > Coop8 > #76: Arbornet Board Invites Grex, HVCN Board Members to Meeting | |
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| 25 new of 229 responses total. |
tsty
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response 125 of 229:
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Jul 10 16:43 UTC 1996 |
<<aapd is too tired... call campus security ...>>
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brighn
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response 126 of 229:
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Jul 10 19:40 UTC 1996 |
<<naw, tell the aapd there's an anti-Klan rally in the Union...
they'll wake up right away>>
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void
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response 127 of 229:
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Jul 10 22:36 UTC 1996 |
m-net's illness isn't due to having to move (yet). it's due to a lot of
other factors, most of which really don't need to be discussed in grex's coop
conference. the thing is, m-net and grex either moving in together or merging
would be a colossally bad idea.
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mdw
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response 128 of 229:
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Jul 11 09:59 UTC 1996 |
Occasionally I think it would be really neat to just go & *fix*
something on m-net (like the broken incoming network mail problem right
now), but then I think of all the weird stories I've heard about m-net
politics, and I feel real happy to be well away from it all.
Actually, corporate mergers are *not* an inevitable rule of the
universe. The *real* thing that fuelled the merger mania in the 80's
was the tax laws, and not anything rational. There are *other*
processes that happen in parallel to mergers which are just as common,
have the opposite effect, but generally aren't as newsworthy. Actually,
one of them is quite big right now, and that's "downsizing". Another
process that sometimes happens could be described as "scrapping";
somebody buys up an organization, sells off the assets, & disposes of
the remains. Sometimes before this, the owners "run it into the ground"
first; the business equivalent of deferred maintenance. There are also
more complicated sorts of processes, including spinoffs, where a company
starts another company, but the new company becomes its own independent
creature, and outright splits, where an existing company divides up its
existing old business into separate business organizations. A very good
example of this latter process is AT&T, which did it once "under the
gun", so to speak, and then found the results so promising that it did
it again, just now, on its own. In fact, there are very good reasons
for AT&T to do this; they had basically gotten into too many unrelated
businesses, and were having trouble figuring out how to do them all
well. Their computer operation, for instance, had done much better as
an independent operation than it had under AT&T's name. If AT&T's
strategy works, it's likely many other companies will follow suit; there
are a *lot* of companies that are floundering around just like AT&T was.
An example of a split that didn't *quite* happen is RJR and Nabisco.
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n8nxf
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response 129 of 229:
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Jul 11 11:23 UTC 1996 |
(The Co. I work for is undergoing the scrapping process. The assets,
however, are intellectual rather than physical. No fun, though my
prediction may be a bit premature.)
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srw
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response 130 of 229:
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Jul 12 04:41 UTC 1996 |
I find myself agreeing with Rick Berk, mostly. I don't want mnet to die.
I am not against sharing space. I would avoid any co-dependancy.
In fact, I don't know a single staff member of Grex who wants anything
bad to happen to M-net. I have no idea if Kerouac is right that
there are M-netters who think Grex staffers wish them ill. I don't use M-net,
so I can only go by what I read here. However, if there are M-netters who
think we feel that way, they are categorically wrong, and someone should point
that out to them.
Most Grex staffers don't want to work on M-net because there is enough to do
here, and because (like Marcus put it above), there are the kinds of political
things over on M-net that make it a less attractive environment to us.
In some cases, there are philosophical differences over fund-raising methods.
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adbarr
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response 131 of 229:
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Jul 12 12:32 UTC 1996 |
I have seen some very sophisticated posts on M-net from Grex staffers trying
to help M-net with technical problems. However, if mdw or others did
go into the Valley of M-Net they should be well armed and have a strong
escort force. Otherwise they might be in danger of being captured? I doubt
it. I would think it would be in the long range interests of Grex to help
m-net get the mail problem fixed or whatever, but that is the choice of
others with the ability.
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robh
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response 132 of 229:
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Jul 12 13:01 UTC 1996 |
Don't worry about Grex staffers defending themselves on M-Net, adbarr.
We'll just upload a virus that makes their shields disappear, then
we can... Oops, wrong conference. >8)
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kerouac
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response 133 of 229:
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Jul 12 16:14 UTC 1996 |
#130...put it this way...both grex aqnd m-net are hurting for members and
more often than not those who do buy memberships are choosing between them
because they are same area code and geographic area. Therefore there is
competition whether it is desired or not. So you can see how easy it
might be to misinterpret negative attitudes on the part of grex staff towards
co-habitation or working together in other ways as being also negative
feelings towards m-net's survival, since if m-net dies grex willget many of
its members and clearly benefit in some ways.
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rcurl
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response 134 of 229:
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Jul 12 16:37 UTC 1996 |
There is *always* competition of some sort between providers of very
similar goods or services. This is The American Way. It really should not
be taken personally, though some of that always creeps in.
I don't think that the competition is really the problem, in regard to
getting members. I think it is the nature of the "service". Two competing
vendors of buggy whips may blame each other for their lack of customers
but the problem lies with the goods. The fact is, there are not many
people that *donate* to support nice things they can get for free. M-Net
goes further than Grex does in offering services for fees, but the central
issue is that the services provided do not elicit an outpouring of
support.
Which is the common problem of all charitable activities. They have to
work on convincing people to donate because the activity is worthwhile -
which entails convincing people that the activity is worthwhile. Whichever
system does this better will be more successful, and whichever system is
more successful, will *not* want to share its success, because of all the
work that was put into it.
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rickyb
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response 135 of 229:
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Jul 12 19:26 UTC 1996 |
Competition is _good_, not bad. The more access providers like mnet and grex
that exist, the more people in the community are educated about using them
and comfortable with joining one, or the other, or both.
My dad taught me that a long time ago. When another doctor moved just around
the corner from him. What occured was that there was an increase in people
in the immediate area seeking the type of specialty care that was offered.
Both doctors practices grew.
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adbarr
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response 136 of 229:
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Jul 12 19:52 UTC 1996 |
It is also one of the reasons gas stations tend to cluster. Not the only
reason, but one of them, I am told.
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janc
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response 137 of 229:
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Jul 13 00:56 UTC 1996 |
Yes, Grex is in competition for member money with M-Net. But you shouldn't
read too much into that. If earning lots of money were our first priority,
we wouldn't be working for Grex. The first priority for most of us to create
a nice environment for us to be a part of. I think all of us believe that
having M-Net around is good for Grex from both a technical and social stand-
point. It's impact on our financial status is a relatively minor concern.
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selena
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response 138 of 229:
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Jul 13 05:49 UTC 1996 |
Yes, don't worry about grex having the acquiring of money for its highest
priority..
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dpc
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response 139 of 229:
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Jul 14 17:31 UTC 1996 |
Steve has offered help to M-Net on security issues, which we very *much*
appreciate!
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mdw
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response 140 of 229:
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Jul 15 05:53 UTC 1996 |
Every grex staff person I know (and I know *all* of them) *wants* m-net
to survive. Every grex staff person I know thinks it would be very much
to grex's disadvantage if m-net were to fold.
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pfv
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response 141 of 229:
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Jul 15 05:59 UTC 1996 |
Indeed, and mnet users feel the same way.. It's _arbornet_ they hope
dries up and blows away ;-)
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bru
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response 142 of 229:
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Jul 22 14:28 UTC 1996 |
Which is te over-riding reason why grex and m-net will never and can never
merge. Arbornet is 501(c)3. If we merged, grex would become a part of the
501(c)3. Grex would be stuck with the problems we currently have. Not good.
Sharing space, possibly sharing a UPS, that might be a good idea.
Grex staff has always been more than co-operative in the help they offer to
us when we have a problem, and I hope m-net is as helpful should grex suffer
a problem.
Thanks.
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pfv
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response 143 of 229:
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Jul 22 15:26 UTC 1996 |
I think the major difference is that Grex seems to have a happy user-base
and plenty of volunteers that would have nary a qualm about donating temp
hardware or time.
Arbornut, OTOH, has lost almost all it's volunteers and it sounds like
the staff is getting sorta' pissed as well..
Ironicalyy, it seems like the Borg cannot understand the reasons for this
and they are caught in not only a very tight loop, but perhaps also a
little fantasyland of their own making..
So similar yet so different.... What a bloody shame.
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adbarr
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response 144 of 229:
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Jul 24 00:08 UTC 1996 |
Pete, it is not the entire board at Arbornet. Some there genuinely want
a change for the better. Others dig deeper tunnels to ignore the increasing
noises of those who question.
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mta
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response 145 of 229:
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Aug 3 19:10 UTC 1996 |
Even if merging GREX and M-Net staffs and Boards didn't actually turn out to
be a way to lose us both members, it sure would be a fast way to lose GREX
staff. The GREX staff is overburdened. From what I've heard, the m-net staff
is even more so. If even one staffer from either system chose to leave, then
the merger would be a net loss. More work for everyone and fewer knowledgable
people to do it.
Besides, as has been said before, anyone who wants to be on both GREX and
M_Net staffs is welcome to do so and always has been. It's even happened from
time to time. That it doesn't happen more often is because the differences
between GREX and M_Net mean that most people are more comfortable with one
and less comfortable with the other. Trying to ignore that or say that "it
shouldn't be so" is just wasting time.
As to people being unwilling to become members just because it's the right
thing to do ... well, that's not entirely true. We have 97 people today who
agree with GREXes philosophy. Yes. It does mean we'll never be rich. It
does mean we'll never be able to keep up with what a commercial service can
provide. But it also means that GREX will never be a place where cyberspace
and the advantages it provides is the pervue only of societies "haves". When
Igave up evenings with my family to help found GREx, it was with the view of
making sure that somewhere on the net there would be a place where money
didn't call the shots.
As much as is possible while still contending with reality, GREX has provided
that. Anyone with access to a computer and a modem (and for a really good
cause, the Computer Refurbishing committe will provide those)nd a phone line
can call direct. From many public libraries, people who don't have even that
can telnet to us. We still need funds to provide these services, and so we
accept donations from those who support our cause. At a certain level of
donation, we have declared the donors committment serious and evident enough
that we declare them "members" and give them a direct vote in the management
of the system. But you notice that *everyone* has a voice in the mnaagement
of the system. Right here in Co-op.
People who want to see a material return on their financial donation just
don't grok the philosophy on which GREX was founded. That's fine. There are
many better places for them to put their money and there are enough people
who do grok what GREX is about. Just enough, perhaps barely enough. But we
get by.
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selena
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response 146 of 229:
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Aug 4 05:07 UTC 1996 |
So, the point is, don't change at all, we're doing just fine as we
are? What about when costs begin to rise, but our membership doesn't?
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srw
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response 147 of 229:
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Aug 4 05:51 UTC 1996 |
I don't think Misti was saying that we shouldn't try harder to raise money,
and I don't think she'd disagree with me that we need to promote membership
harder. I believe that there are a lot of people out there with the means to
help Grex and who haven't realized yet how important their measly membership
donation is to us.
We're doing OK, but not great. We have an outlook that works, sort of. But
people do want to see better infrastructire, and others want to see shorter
waiting lines, and others want to see more people able to use the system.
While we don't all always agree that these are good for grex, most of us
recognize these things as goals, but they all cost money,and none of them can
happen unless more people join up and support us.
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selena
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response 148 of 229:
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Aug 4 14:51 UTC 1996 |
Well, I've helped out on some things, but no action was taken..
and $100 is no "measley" donation! So, saying all this is fine, but when
will you ACT on it.. you had the financial support, for a long time.
Also, I was going to be a contributing member, until you
said that you'd rather be anal about your precious verification
policy than have another member.
So, I see where misti is more correct than you, steve.
It seems that grex really doesn't care about the money.. maybe even
not as much as it should!
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janc
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response 149 of 229:
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Aug 4 16:57 UTC 1996 |
There are certainly many things Grex cares about more than money. There are
many things that we won't do no matter how much they would earn us. But we
all understand that we need to bring in enough money to keep things up and
going, an preferably enough to support some steady growth and improvement.
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