response 126 of 315:

Jun 25 13:25 UTC 1996

Kerouac has told me, in essence, to "shape up or ship out" -- if I'm
unwilling to fit in with the community here on Grex, says he, it will not
bend to me, so I should go start another BBS.  He has said that staffers
who, like Popcorn, keep their mesg's off all the time should resign.
Great, so now he's using "should"s, it's only his opinion.  But those
are mighty strong opinions -- "people should do it my way or leave".
Sounds like "I want!  I want!" to me.

response 128 of 315:

Jun 25 16:34 UTC 1996

All I have done is offer some opinions.   I have no doubt that if a vote 
were taken, most users would say that those who choose (by their own 
choice) to be on staff should agree to keep their perms on at least SOME 
of the time.  I never said all of the time.  I understand keeping them 
off while reading confs from time to time or answering email.  Face it 
though, email is slow as holy hell around here, if there is a security b 
reach a user shouldnt have to wait for "pine" to load to send email to 
notify staff, they should be able to do so even more immediately.  

I reject the notion that because one is a volunteer one does not have 
to answer to those that they serve.  My father is a doctor, he puts in 
time at free clinics for which he does not get paid.  Just because they 
are not paying him, does not mean that my dad's patients dont have the 
right to expect that he will perform his services as he has agreed to.  
Even though no money passes hands and even though he is there of his own 
initiative, his agreeing to be there implies a contract.  He has agreed 
to serve those patients.  Staffers who accept root access agree to serve 
this bbs and its users.   By accepting root access and staff memebrship, 
there is an oral contract.   Regardless of whether is was voluntarily 
entered into, it is a contract.

If a staffer is logged on for an hour, it is not that much of an 
imposition to keep perms on for say ten minutes or something.  Why should 
staff not be directly accessible once in a while?  There is someting 
wrong when one has "staff" membership and yet doesnt want to be bothered 
by other users.  Staff ought to have higher standards.  They should want 
root for more than just re-booting or playing with code.  

A lot of m-net's problems lie in the fact that their staff have been 
lookingout for their own interests and not concerning themselves enough 
with the users' interests.  And m-net's board has been loking out for its 
own interests and not the staff's interests.  So staff and users are both 
leaving. A place like this only works when you realize that everything is 
interrelated, that it is not enough to simply do your own thing and not 
pay attention to anything else.  Staffers cant be staff and board members 
cant be board members only when they feel like it.  They have accepted 
positions of responsibility.  A doctor is on call professionally 24 hours 
a day  A policeman carries his gun even when he is off duty.  A staffer 
can keep perms on for a few minutes of every hour that they are logged 
on.  Just a few minutes.

If people are going to contribute to grex, they need to know that even 
though it is run voluntarily, it is run with professional standards. 



The staff here is great.  But then again, m-net's staff used to be good 
too.  Standards have slipped and that bbs has gone to hell.  So I'm not 
being childish, I'm saying that we shouldnt act like what has happened 
there cant happen here.

response 130 of 315:

Jun 25 18:14 UTC 1996

Well, I'm glad that somebody who's looked at the code (I haven't)
thinks it'd be easy. Though it certainly shouldn't be hard -- the
program already looks at various conditions to decide whether
person A is allowed to write to person B, and this modification
would just be adding a couple more conditions to the list.

(I'll respond to Richard's #128 here only to the extent of
observing that I'm surprised at his confidence that a vote would
support his position when the discussion itself reveals no support
for his position.)

response 132 of 315:

Jun 25 21:21 UTC 1996

Staff doesn't have to choose to be root and have root responsibilities.

Kerouac, if your father's work at free clinics was changed to include some
new rules, such as "must be the first one to answer the phone, must fill out
xxx forms for each call, etc.", might that not affect his choice to volunteer
there?  We *could* apply such standards to staff as "must have tels on xx
minutes out of an hour".  We'd then be a lot more like M-net.  M-net didn't
lose a lot of staffers over giving them too much freedom, it lost them over
too many rules.

And what is this about a "contract"?  That sounds totally clueless.  Yes,
staffers have a high standard of not doing any root abuse, like reading
personal mail, kicking off users, etc., but you make it sound like staff is
required to do all these things for the "users".  Unpaid users, quite a lot,
including you.  Yet despite all the shit staff gets, every staffer is a
staffer because they do give a damn.  Nobody is on staff for the prestige or
the wild staff parties.  Being on staff is already a pile of responsibilities,
and *every* member of Grex's staff knows it.  And every example you gave of
people who are "on call" are PAID to be on call.  

I think you'd have a lot better understanding of Grex and its staff if you
pictured it as a park.  Maybe a little corner park, about a block from where
you live.  Gardeners volunteer to keep the grass green, flowers growing, etc.
Occasionally, a bunch of people put in a new bench or a drinking fountain.
People in the neighborhood enjoy sitting and talking in the park, and perhaps
leaving notes on the bulletin board.

Occasionally, somebody comes along and starts leaving notes bitching about
the kind of flowers, and suggests that the gardeners are being
"unprofessional" because they don't show up more often to pick gum out of the
drinking fountain.

Now who do you suppose that somebody is?

BTW, if we took a vote with the users that all staffers must contribute half
their (obviously non-Grex) salary to Grex for a faster internet link, most
users would vote for the faster link.  That doesn't mean staff is going to
give half of their salary!  That just means a really stupid vote was taken.

response 134 of 315:

Jun 25 22:50 UTC 1996

actually I think staff should get benefits for being staff...like they
get to use the staff dedicated modems instead of waiting in line.  And
I dont think staff should have to pay member dues, it should be a perk
for being on staff.  Things like that.

And Scott, your park analogy is inaccurate.  I am not asking staff to
pull any flowers or change anything about the system.  Just that they
take the time to listen.  Once in a while.   Popcorn is not so
popular, she is going to get bombarded with !tels the moment she turns
her perms on.  Keeping them off all the time, give the impression that
staff is arrogant, that they regard themselves as too good to waste
time talking to regular users.  That they are keeping the system up for
their own purposes and otherwise dont care to be bothered.

I know this isnt true.  But new users and users not clued in to how
good the staff is here wont know this.  

What I propose is simple.  A default "!tel staff' that would automatically 
!tel whichever staffer is on.  The staffer would get "You have a staff
related tel from ....., do you wish to respond (y/n)?"   If the staffer
says no, the user is directed to email.

If someone is going to mess with the code to put in .yes/.no, they can
add this and also add some options to the rregular !tel prompts as has
been discussed previously.

response 136 of 315:

Jun 26 00:10 UTC 1996

I never thought staff ignored people as  newuser.
I mean, it was openly posted here and there who they were
and most of them don't have their perms off and they all read their mail ona
fairly timely basis, and mail really is good for system stuff
because there's record of it. A lot of them take help
request and pop into party from time to time. I have neverheard a newuser
complain of the things you complain of kerouac, and it's
been a long time since you've been a newuser (more than a year
since I have too, but things haven;'t changed... I've
had conversations via mail and party and chats to staffers
(IRL too, for that matter)

response 138 of 315:

Jun 26 00:54 UTC 1996

I don't think it's within Kerouac's realm of knowledge to
hypothesize how many !tels Popcorn would or would not get.
If there were a requirement that staff had to have their perms
on, say, 10% of the time, then most staff, IMHO would (a) 
get significantly less work done and (b) would spend
less time online than they do.  Neither would be beneficial
for Grex.  SO they'd be reachable in caseo f Kerouac's
hypothetical security breach.  Those are few enough (if they
even exist with the emergency that Kerouac implies) that they're
not worth the cost of lost volunteer time and enthusiasm.
Personally, though I do have various and sundry complaints
about Grex, I willingly accept that the Grex volunteers are 
doing the best they can be expected to do, and I try to shut 
up once I've aired my comments once...

response 140 of 315:

Jun 26 05:53 UTC 1996

Being the ornery cuss I am, I'd stay on staff, though I'd sure
spend a lot more time on my MSen account than I do now.
At least there, nobody compels me to talk to them.

Re 132 - Speak for yourself, the main reason I joined staff
was to be invited to the wild staff parties.  All the booze,
and the strippers, and... er...  Never mind.  >8)

<robh wonders if kerouac will actually believe that last bit>

response 142 of 315:

Jun 26 13:40 UTC 1996

Didn't M-net's Board, at one point when they still had staff, try
to get staff to wear beepers and be on-call on a regular basis?
Even when staff was quite clearly against the idea?  

Duh.

response 144 of 315:

Jun 26 13:55 UTC 1996

Mary slipped in, not that it matters.

response 146 of 315:

Jun 26 17:04 UTC 1996

kerouac, without rancor, #145 shows the basis for the non-grexian
concepts you suggest or recommend. this place ain't like that. it just ain't.

response 148 of 315:

Jun 26 17:55 UTC 1996

Abstain. I do think Staff should each receive 1 pound of fresh shrimp
or 2 just-ripe avocacdos each month.