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Grex > Coop8 > #19: What Should The Co-op Login Screen Say? |  |
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| 25 new of 280 responses total. |
janc
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response 125 of 280:
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Mar 3 00:53 UTC 1996 |
Will whoever fiddled with the screens please 'fess up so tsty can stop using
that as an excuse to evade challenges over the screen contents?
It could have been a root, a cfadm, or a fairwitness. All talk about root
break-ins is, in this context, pretty much a red herring.
Whoever is "at fault" in this controversy, it is the fairwitnesses job to keep
the conference productive an on track. I don't think the fairwitnesses are
doing that very well.
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steve
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response 126 of 280:
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Mar 3 06:35 UTC 1996 |
TS, the "root abuse" you speak of was the changing of a login
banner in a humerous way. And, that I know of, it was one person
who "left", not several. However, even assuming a couple, I find
it interesting that there wasn't more protesting. Not even the FW
of the conference complained--they thought it was funny. So get off
your horse about "root abuse" on that, becuase it wasn't.
The issue of how the files here got changed is more serious if
neitehr you nor Mike did it. Yes, please send me email on allthe
data you have on that. I do suspect that someone with root powers
did change things if you folks didn't, but then again, do understand
that there is still the possibility of someome having some way to
become root that we don't know of. Thats my greatest security fear--
that someone out there knows how to become root at will and is waiting
for the right time to do something. Is it likely that we have such
a thing on Grex now? I don't think so. But I do know that we've
had this problem before, like in October '94 when Grex was off the
net for a few days as we made sure that *all* the devious things a
vandal did got fixed. So there is a history of that happening. Not
often thank God, but it has happened.
However TS, this still evades the issue of why you are taking
this stance. I will ask again, what type of feedback you've gotten
on this: mostly in what direction? Why are you taking this course?
I really like Mary's idea in #121.
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adbarr
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response 127 of 280:
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Mar 4 12:15 UTC 1996 |
Mary, please refine the issues. You are the right track, but we need to be
more specifi hre. I sense several issues, alldiverging.
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steve
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response 128 of 280:
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Mar 4 15:40 UTC 1996 |
TS and Nephi: Are you ever going to explain yourselves--or give
feedback on the opinions people have been expressing about this whole
issue? I've been asking for a couple of weeks now with no response.
A simple "no" will do if you'd like.
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adbarr
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response 129 of 280:
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Mar 5 03:53 UTC 1996 |
STeve,
I hope you know how much I respect your abilities, and you, but I would
like very much, for you to state the issue(s) here. Nephi and tsty deserve
no less.
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srw
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response 130 of 280:
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Mar 5 06:45 UTC 1996 |
Gee, I think STeve has been quite clear about what the issue is.
Why is the login message so long? It's annoying to regular users of the
conference, and we are puzzled why the fairwitnesses are trying to be so
annoying.
At first I thought that it was unintentional and that they would react to
he wishes of the conference users, but now I am convinced it is
completely intentional and that they wish to do this despite our wishes.
The aren't even responding. Just silence.
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adbarr
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response 131 of 280:
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Mar 5 11:57 UTC 1996 |
Please state the proper length for a login message? I appreciate that some
seem upset here, but the reality I have experienced makes me wonder why all
the fuss? Should login messages be limited to 20 words or less? Continually,
it seems, well-meaning people transgress agains the "rules". But, what are
the rules? Frankly, I don't blame nephi and testy for being upset. Perhaps
they could be a little more flexible in their response to this, but there
seems to me to be a duty on the part of those who say "too long" to say
how long is ok, then everyone will know. And, it is basic to state "how
long" _before_ a new login message is created by someone, and to inform them
of the "how long" rules. It is frustrating to argue with a constantly changing
position.
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carson
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response 132 of 280:
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Mar 5 15:01 UTC 1996 |
I wonder about the length too, as there seems to be some effort being
made to reach a particular range of length with each successive rewrite.
For each line of excessive text that disappears, an equally excessive
line seems to take its place.
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popcorn
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response 133 of 280:
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Mar 5 17:09 UTC 1996 |
This response has been erased.
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kerouac
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response 134 of 280:
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Mar 6 03:06 UTC 1996 |
The reason should be obvious that this hasnt worked itself out. TSTY
and Nephi dont read this conference regularly. They probably pick up on
a few items, but dont follow anything regularly. This should have been
obvious when COOP needed to be restarted last time and they had to be
pushed and prodded. Then they didnt know which items to link, which would
have been obvious had they read the conference. There is no set rule that
an FW has to read every item in the conf they are supervising, but it seems
like a fairly obvious thing to be doing. I question whether they are truly
committed to this conf and should be fw's here, but they may not even read
this unless someone prompts them to get caught up with the responses in this
item.
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kaplan
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response 135 of 280:
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Mar 6 03:07 UTC 1996 |
The current login screen is not just too long, it's too wordy. It could say
most of what it's trying to say with many fewer words. Also, I'd like to see
fewer longer lines.
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rcurl
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response 136 of 280:
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Mar 6 07:14 UTC 1996 |
Re #132: you mean, it's been changing? When coop comes up I use the
time for the login screen to pass to do some little chore.
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scg
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response 137 of 280:
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Mar 6 08:08 UTC 1996 |
TS and I had a long conversation about this in the frozen food isle at Busch's
tonight. I hope he'll say here some of the things he said then, since even
if it doesn't make people agree with his position, it may help people
understand what his position on this is, which I don't think has been very
clear online.
We also discussed some alternative ways of making what is said in the Coop
login screen more readily available than TS feels it would be in the bulletin,
without having it somewhere where people who have been reading this conference
every day for years will be forced through it every time. I'm going to be
throwing together my way of implementing this whole thing and e-mailing it
to TS (with no guarantee that he'll actually use it here), so that he can look
at it and consider it.
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adbarr
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response 138 of 280:
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Mar 6 12:16 UTC 1996 |
Thanks, scg for a constructive effort. This is progress.
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remmers
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response 139 of 280:
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Mar 6 13:59 UTC 1996 |
I hope so. I'll believe it when I see it. Bottom line is that
this issue is taking far too much of people's time; I too see
the problem as fairwitness obstinacy.
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steve
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response 140 of 280:
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Mar 6 14:45 UTC 1996 |
Arnold, I thought I'd made my case, but it never hurts to say things
again so here goes. My disgruntlement is as follows--
- The continued silence from the FW's on an issue that they are
involved with. I don't care what the problem is, the FW's of
a conference should at least acknowledge it, and make a good-
faith effort to resolve it.
- The "take it or leave it" attitude that I have seen, to date.
- The fact that I have to wade through something that I now only
consider noise, so I can get to the actual content of the
conference. Coming in through a pty takes time; last attempt
to get through the login banner that way it took 31 seconds--
I timed it. Now, obviously Grex was slow for everything that
night, but why take extra time for something that isn't needed?
- The "Shove it in your face" philosophy is actually damaging to
to coop conference. It shows a lack of understanding that telling
someone something once or twice is a good thing, but telling them
100 times is very negative.
- The fact that this conference has always had a low-key approach
to maintenance before, which worked for 4.5 years.
- The fact that we're spending any energy at all on this, when there
are hundreds of other things more deserving of our time.
I hope this makes my case clear. The above items are roughly in
decending order on my personal aggravation scale.
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adbarr
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response 141 of 280:
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Mar 7 02:03 UTC 1996 |
STeve,
As usual, your points are well taken. You always impressed me as logical, if
somewhat "liberal" (forgive the appelation, please) at times. <adbarr
remembers some trip(s) to Lansing in your company>. Perhaps my interface with
Grex is preventing me from recoginzing what is causing all the problem here.
I login, join coop, and in seconds am reading the items. 31 seconds would make
me a little impatient, also. I agree, that is "beyond the pale", but is it
the screen that is at fault? Maybe I am not experiencing the same thing you
are? Is that possible? Really, I have never had a bit of trouble here since
all the complaints were lodged, and the Temple Lions of Grex in Agora <Praise
be upon them!> took considerably more time for me, than did anything here.
Are we talking apples and oranges? Over the long-haul, everything I have seen
about nephi and tsty tells me that they are sincere, supportive, constructive,
and creative. They deserve the same in response. They may be wrong, whatever
that is, The issue, here, by the way, is no longer the login screen. It is
the authority of the fairwitness, who is invited to creat the screen. At least
that is one of the issues. STeve, I did not attempt to address your points,
all deserving of sincere consideration, because I am not trying to debate
this, but to understand.
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steve
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response 142 of 280:
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Mar 7 02:57 UTC 1996 |
I fully understand what you are saying Arnold. Let me see if
I can state things again maybe a little better--
The fact that the screen takes time to wade through is a minor
but consistent annoyance. I can live with that.
What irks me is the lack of response as to *why* they have
chosen to take this approach. Like you, I would fully expect
both TS and Mike to take the reasonable approach here, and to
me, they clearly are not.
Now: it isn't this act (a long screen) that bothers me so much
as their actions do, in the face of what I see as complaint.
However, I'm not 100% sure about the complaint level: I have
asked several times now, what the reactions have been to this,
from their perspective. Perhaps I am wrong: perhaps most people
*don't* see it as I do, and I should shut up--it wouldn't be
the first time I've been dead wrong. Yet I doubt that in this
case--I've heard a couple of "I don't care"'s, and in general,
complaints. If I am wrong, then I'm wrong. But I'm not getting
any data back from them. *That* bothers me.
In the history of Grex, there has always been a coop
conference. Until now, it has always felt like the Fairwitnes(s)
of this conference was a "maintenance" person, with the
participants being the active force in where the conference
goes.
This incident however, is very much different from what
this conference is used to. We the users of coop8 *have*
*been* *told* what is good for us. That is not in the
spirit of this conference. A vote on whether or not to
continue with the current login screen, while a little
bizarre *would* be in the spirit, much more so than what
is going on.
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scg
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response 143 of 280:
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Mar 7 04:50 UTC 1996 |
TS says he feels that the job of the FairWittness is to set the tone for the
conference, as well as to do maintenance. I'm not sure I agree, but it's an
interesting perspective.
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janc
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response 144 of 280:
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Mar 7 07:32 UTC 1996 |
What tone does this item set.
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scg
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response 145 of 280:
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Mar 7 07:59 UTC 1996 |
Ok. Here's what I just sent to TS. I also sent him something else earlier
this evening, a description of a pretty simple hack, which I volunteered to
do the programming for, which would do what TS described to me as the perfect
substitute for something like the bulletin. I don't think what I proposed
there would satisfy everybody, but I think it would be a good compromise
between the two positions. I may post that after I see TS's response to it.
Anyway, here's the much simpler solution, which TS and I discussed last night.
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 02:45:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Steve Gibbard <scg@lawtech.com>
To: tsty@cyberspace.org
Subject: Stuff we talked about last night
Here's how to get the current Coop login screen to show up with an easy
command, while not shoving it at everybody every time:
Put the following line in the Coop conference's rc file:
define intro 1 "display bull"
Then the login screen could be modified to something like this:
Welcome to Coop!
We discuss Grex policies here.
-*-
Your fairwitnesses:
TS Taylor (tsty)
Mike O'Leary (nephi)
-*-
Type intro to see what this conference is for.
Or something like that.
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remmers
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response 146 of 280:
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Mar 7 11:35 UTC 1996 |
I like it. (It even uses the remmers patented "centered lines
with separating *'s" style. :-)
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popcorn
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response 147 of 280:
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Mar 7 12:29 UTC 1996 |
This response has been erased.
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carson
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response 148 of 280:
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Mar 7 15:14 UTC 1996 |
aye. thanks, scg.
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davel
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response 149 of 280:
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Mar 8 02:43 UTC 1996 |
What Valerie said. Mostly.
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